The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Welcome to this Plenary meeting. Before we begin, I want to make a few points. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting. These are noted on your agenda. I would remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply to this meeting, and apply equally to Members in the Siambr and those joining virtually.

Statement by the Llywydd

So, to begin, I wish to inform the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.75, that the Wild Animals and Circuses (Wales) Act 2020 was given Royal Assent on 7 September.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first item this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from John Griffiths.

Protecting the Most Vulnerable

John Griffiths AC: 1. What action will the Welsh Government take to protect the most vulnerable in society during the COVID-19 pandemic? OQ55524

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, an enormous effort has been mobilised across Wales to protect our most vulnerable citizens during the pandemic. In addition to our public services and third sector organisations, countless volunteers, friends and neighbours have provided help to those most in need. Our winter protection plan, published today, sets out ways in which this huge collective effort can be continued.

John Griffiths AC: First Minister, COVID-19 has laid bare the indefensible unfairness in our society. Those on lower incomes, in insecure jobs, living in poor-quality housing and suffering health inequalities are particularly vulnerable to the virus, in terms of their health, economically and socially. Our more deprived communities, black and ethnic minorities, and disabled people are disproportionately affected. In Newport, we have experience of this, and we now have a worrying spike in COVID-19 cases.First Minister, will you set out the Welsh Government's response to this recent outbreak, and join me in urging local people and businesses to redouble their efforts to follow regulations and advice to keep the virus under control and avoid further lockdown?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, can I thank John Griffiths for those very important points? He quite rightly draws attention to the recent spike in numbers of people suffering from coronavirus in the Newport area. A considerable effort is being mobilised through the local outbreak control team, working very closely with the local authority—I was speaking with the leader of Newport City Council, Councillor Jane Mudd, yesterday—and our test, trace, protect team have been absolutely assiduous in following up all those cases that have come to our attention, and then, in turn, getting in contact with the people who they have been in contact with. As a result, those efforts are helping to stabilise the position in Newport. And of course we hope that there will be no need for further action, but if there is a need, if those figures do not improve and local action has to be supplemented by national action, then that is exactly what will happen. And as John Griffiths said, Llywydd, that is even more important for those vulnerable groups in a city like Newport—black and minority ethnic communities, people with disabilities, and so on—for whom, were the virus to get out of control, the risks would be particularly serious.

Angela Burns AC: Good afternoon, First Minister. I listened to your response to John Griffiths very carefully, because I agree that there's a lot of harm to be done if this virus gets out of control. There's also a significant harm that will happen to people who may be asked to shield again, to people who have such disabilities, to people who've got perhaps learning disabilities, do not understand clearly what is going on. So, for example, I've been approached by a disability advocacy group, where one mother's daughter, who's in a residential setting supported by social services, has been told that she probably will not be allowed to go home until June of next year—next year. We are asking some people to make absolutely extraordinary sacrifices. If we do have to go back into lockdown, those who have to shield will have to go back into it. First Minister, what assurances could you give us, or what can the Government do, to make sure that, this time around, if we are faced with that situation, there are ways we can be more compassionate and more kind about some of the things we're asking some of the very vulnerable people in our society to cope with, especially those who perhaps have more difficulty in understanding the necessity?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank the Member for those points. I agree with very much of what she said—that the impact of responding to coronavirus falls especially hard on those people who have the least ability to be able to recognise what is happening around them and then to respond to it, whether that be very elderly people who have suffered from dementia, whether it be people with learning disabilities, and so on. And it is very important that we learn from the experience of the last six months. My colleague Jane Hutt has chaired five meetings of the disability equality forum over that period. It's been attended as well by the chief medical officer and by my colleague Julie James. And all that is about trying to learn from the lived experience of people who, as in Angela Burns's contact's case, have had to live with the astonishing burden that coronavirus has placed on some members of our society. So, I think the best assurance we can give those people is to listen carefully to them, and to hear from them about ways in which, were we to face a further period of the sort we faced back in March and April, we have learned from the ways in which they have coped with this experience. And where we can do more to support them and can design our public services in a way that is better able to respond to their needs, then that is exactly what we will try to do.

Public Finances

Michelle Brown AC: 2. What assessment has been made of the risks to public finances as a consequence of the COVID-19 pandemic? OQ55514

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Office for Budget Responsibility's latest assessment shows a very large increase in the fiscal deficit for the UK as a whole during this financial year. The Welsh Government's fiscal framework protects the Welsh budget from the impact on devolved revenues of the UK-wide economic shock arising from the pandemic.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. Your Government has encouraged local authorities to invest in commercial properties around the country. You've lent them taxpayers' money to do so, and the Development Bank of Wales lends money directly to private companies developing commercial properties. Last financial year, the bank lent £34.1 million of taxpayers' money to property developers, and this year the bank has two funds available to property developers, totalling £97 million. Most of it is in the commercial property fund, and all of the money is provided by the Welsh Government, i.e. the taxpayer. As a result of lockdown, property experts are predicting that commercial property could lose 50 per cent of its value and rent returns will go through the floor as businesses close and downsize offices because more staff are working from home or need rent holidays. Even the Office for Budget Responsibility admits to at least a 14 per cent drop in value over the next year. If the OBR are correct, the Development Bank of Wales could lose £7.7. million in one year if it invests all of its commercial property fund of £55 million. The bank may already have lost £4.7 million on last year's investments. The picture could be just as bad for local authorities. Flintshire County Council, for example, owns 13 business centres and industrial estates. So, how much taxpayers' money invested in commercial property could be lost due to lockdown? How much money have you set aside to bail out councils who lose money because of investments in commercial property reducing? And has the DBW changed its lending criteria towards commercial property developers since the coronavirus came along and changed the way people work and conduct business?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think the risk in the Member's question is to conflate short-term and long-term consequences of the pandemic. In the short run, there's absolutely no doubt at all that commercial property values have been affected by coronavirus and that they will continue to be affected as the economic shock of the pandemic unfolds across our economy. But I don't think that we should assume that those short-term impacts are guaranteed to be characteristic of the way the economy will recover. Nor do I think it is fair to criticise any organisation from having made lending decisions in one set of circumstances when something entirely unforeseeable then makes a difference to the way that those investments are now valued. What I expect to see is I expect lending decisions now to be calibrated to the current set of circumstances we see, and I expect us to take a long-term view of some of those investments and not to make decisions in haste that would respond to what we all surely hope is a temporary impact of a global set of circumstances on our economy and that the economy will recover in ways that will protect those investments in the longer term.

Nick Ramsay AC: I think Michelle Brown just about covered everything there, didn't she, First Minister? But I'll ask you about the tax situation. Yesterday, in Finance Committee, we had an evidence session with the finance Minister, where she spoke about the impact of the pandemic on house sales and on land transaction tax. What assessment has been made of the ongoing pandemic on not just that tax but on all taxes, including the Welsh rate of income tax? And you just mentioned in response to Michelle Brown that the fiscal framework supports the Welsh budget against shocks such as a pandemic and UK and international shocks. Are you confident that the fiscal framework is operating properly and that it will fully defend the Welsh budget and Welsh tax revenues against the shock of the pandemic?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, if I was to take Nick Ramsay's phrase literally, 'fully defend', then I don't suppose I could guarantee that, because the impact of coronavirus will be felt across the whole of the UK economy as well as the Welsh economy, and across UK Government revenues as well as our own. I am confident that the fiscal framework defends us against shocks that would be experienced in Wales where those shocks are experienced elsewhere. The block grant adjustment will take account of that and will mean that we are protected against those effects.
I'm also pleased to be able to say to the Member, because I know what a close interest he took in it at the time, that the 105 per cent consequential rule that we have as a result of the fiscal framework has already provided £360 million to Wales that would not have come to Wales were it not for the fiscal framework and that part of it that we negotiated at the time. So, we are defended by the fiscal framework. None of us are defended against the global impact that coronavirus has on the whole of the UK economy and more widely.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, I am confident that you will agree with me when I say that an innovative use of tax competencies can have a positive effect on our public finances, as well as bringing other positive societal benefits. As you will know, I'm a keen supporter of the vacant land tax, which could not only boost public finances but, more importantly, also transform our communities. So, I was disappointed to read the written statement from the finance Minister last week about the foot dragging from UK Ministers on this. Will the Welsh Government continue to press UK Ministers to respect the devolution settlement so that these proposals can be developed and not let them use responding to the pandemic as an excuse for inaction or rowing back?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Vikki Howells for that, and I very much recognise the interest she has taken in the vacant land tax issue. I well remember the short debate that she held on this topic. Sadly, this is a much less positive aspect of our negotiations with the Treasury. While I was able to speak positively of the fiscal framework, this is a much less satisfactory story.
Let's remember for a moment, Llywydd, that what we have been trying to do is to use a power put into the Conservative Government of Wales Act 2017. This is a power that the then Government put on the statute book, and it allows the Welsh Government to propose new taxes for Wales. Some Members here will remember that we deliberately chose a narrow and specific tax, a vacant land tax, not a controversial tax, in many ways, in principle, in order to test that machinery. More than two and a half years have gone by since that proposal was first put to the Treasury. And, despite what have, at some points, been reasonably productive relationships, in August we received a very disappointing letter from the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury, reopening a whole series of questions and debates that had already been answered in previous negotiations. I'm afraid what is becoming apparent is that the machinery that we set out to test is not satisfactory; that it is not competent to deal with the issue that the previous Conservative Government itself put on the statute book for Wales. We'll continue to work away at it, as Vikki Howells has said, but I'm afraid what we're learning is that the machinery itself is broken beyond repair.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the Conservatives, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, yesterday it came to light that Public Health Wales admitted a data breach that saw details of just over 18,000 people, who'd tested positive for COVID-19, posted on its website for almost a whole day. That figure included almost 2,000 people living in communal settings such as nursing homes and those living in supported housing, which went as far as to reveal their place of residence. First Minister, given that this is not the first time there has been a problem with public health data, it's deeply worrying that the health Minister didn't come forward with this immediately and with an explanation on what steps will now be taken to restore public confidence, because it's been suggested that the Government has known about this for weeks. So, First Minister, I hope you'll now take the opportunity today to apologise to the people affected by this latest data breach. Will you also take the opportunity to tell us how long the Welsh Government has known about this breach and what you're doing to restore public confidence in its data management?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I learnt of this data breach yesterday, and I learnt of it as a result of Public Health Wales's statement, which, as Paul Davies has said, drew attention to the data breach. It is a serious matter when data regulations are not properly observed, and I think Public Health Wales was right to apologise to those people whose data was inadvertently put into the public domain in this way. Thankfully, as Paul Davies said, the breach lasted for less than a day and the initial inquiries suggest that no harm has been done as a result. But that is a matter of luck rather than anything else.
It's right, therefore, that Public Health Wales has instituted an inquiry into what went wrong, has informed the Information Commissioner, and we will look to both of those offices to make sure that the reasons that lie behind the data breach can be identified, and if there are any systems that need to be put right, that those steps are taken rapidly.

Paul Davies AC: Well, I'm sure, First Minister, the people affected would appreciate an apology from you as First Minister, given that these circumstances have taken place. But, of course, this isn't the first personal data breach, following the incident where 13,000 shielding letters were sent to the wrong addresses earlier this year, not once, but of course twice. Let's also not forget that Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, under your direct control, First Minister, failed to report daily coronavirus death figures because it used a different reporting system to one set up for the Welsh NHS. Therefore, let's hope that this is the last time people's personal data is mishandled during this pandemic, as this could very well damage public confidence, particularly as people are being asked to hand over personal details for the track and trace system.
First Minister, there's also understandable concern at plans to reduce COVID-19 testing from weekly to fortnightly at care homes in north Wales. Can you therefore confirm that the Welsh Government will not reduce the weekly testing of care home residents in Wales? And can you tell us what discussions the Welsh Government is having with those in the Welsh care sector about its testing programme?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, it's important to correct a number of points in that. Let's be clear that Betsi Cadwaladr's use of a different reporting system did not involve any breaches of personal data. The two things are entirely different and they're not connected in the way that the Member attempted to connect them in his follow-up question, nor are care home residents tested. It's care home staff who are tested on a weekly or a fortnightly basis, not residents. So, let's be clear about that too. It is quite important in this to be accurate in the way that we put these questions and discuss them.
So, we are in discussions, of course, with all local health bodies about the rate at which we test staff, and where there are symptomatic residents that residents are tested as well. The positivity rate of staff tested in Welsh care homes over this summer was 0.12 per cent. It was absolutely fractional, and it's important to be proportionate, as I believe your health Secretary Matt Hancock has been preaching all morning, about the way we use the scarce resource that tests represent.
The difficulties that we face in care home testing in Wales are because we switched care home testing to the lighthouse laboratories provided by the UK Government. I'm sorry that some care homes are losing confidence in that system and suggesting that they wouldn't be prepared to take part in it. We will look to see whether we need to switch capacity back into the Welsh system in what I hope will be a short period while those lighthouse labs return to the very good service that they were providing in Wales, as elsewhere, only three weeks ago. But the temporary difficulties in care home testing, such as they are, are as a result of the difficulties that that system, that UK system, is experiencing, not because of difficulties in the Welsh testing system.

Paul Davies AC: The point I was making, First Minister, is that it is important that you as a Government consult with the care home sector, because it's absolutely critical that the sector is being fully consulted on your testing policy, and I hope that you will reflect on your comments.
Now, one aspect of testing policy that could make a real difference in identifying possible threats is airport testing. Testing all people returning home from abroad will surely keep people safe. Now, the shadow Home Secretary, Nick Thomas-Symonds, called for a robust testing regime in airports as a way to minimise the need for the two-week isolation period upon return to the UK, and in a letter to the Home Secretary, he made it clear that ramped-up testing is an important part of trying to respond to the pandemic and safely reopen society. He also said,
'Given the huge challenges being faced by the travel sector and the scale of job losses, it makes sense to look at this area as part of a wider package of improvements to the testing regime.'
The shadow Home Secretary is right; I agree with him. Do you agree with him?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, we are in discussions with the airport in Cardiff to see if we can find a practical way in which airport testing itself could be carried out. There are some practical issues that have to be addressed in that, in terms of the length of time that people may have to wait at an airport, how long people would be prepared to wait at an airport—you can't require people to do these things; it's a matter of voluntary participation. Therefore, you have to spend a bit of time to make sure that, if you are able to provide tests at an airport,you can do it in a way that is effective, and those discussions with the airport authorities here in Cardiff are continuing.

Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. BMA Cymru Wales has warned that a second COVID peak is highly likely this winter, and is the No. 1 concern among the medical profession, as it is, I'm sure, for all of us. Could I urge the First Minister to give serious consideration to adopting elements of the 10-point winter plan that we published today, which is designed to avoid both a second wave and a second national lockdown? In particular, could I ask that the First Minister examines the case for introducing, whenever possible, the targeted approach adopted by some countries based around smart lockdowns focused on high infection spikes at a community or neighbourhood level, rather than lockdowns across a whole local authority area?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Adam Price for that question, Llywydd, and I'm looking forward to having a chance to look properly at the 10-point plan. Any constructive contributions to ways in which we can better approach the winter are welcome. I know that he will have seen the winter protection plan that the Welsh Government has published today, and there's a lot of overlap between the ideas. So I'm very keen to look constructively at those ideas.
In many ways, the idea of a smart or targeted approach can be seen in the way in which our TTP system responded, for example, to the Rowan Foods outbreak in Wrexham, where we didn't need to have borough-wide restrictions on people's liberties: we were able to focus on the people who worked at that plant and their immediate contacts. The requirement to self-isolate, the advice that was given to that particular group in the population, could be, I think, fairly regarded as an example of a smart lockdown, as those people were in isolation for 14 days. The more we are able to target our interventions so that they respond to the nature of the problem we have in front of us, and don't restrict therefore the lives of people who are not directly caught up in that, the better I think we will command public confidence when those measures need to be taken.

Adam Price AC: The forecasting team at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine are reporting currently their estimate, as of 11 September, of the R figure for Wales as being 1.43, which would put Wales as having the highest rate of growth currently in the UK and a doubling time of just over six days. Do you recognise those estimates, First Minister? If not, what are the Welsh Government's latest estimates? Given the growing urgency of the situation and the difficulties that you referred to earlier in terms of the UK lighthouse lab system, is it possible to bring that new network of hot lab facilities being planned in Wales on-stream earlier than November? As capacity grows, can we look at testing asymptomatic contacts as many countries, including the United States, have now begun to do?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Adam Price again for those questions. The technical advisory cell summary published, I think, today, suggests that the R level in Wales is above 1. I don't think we would sign up to a figure as precise as 1.43. The problem with the R figure for the whole of Wales is that it is inevitably affected by the south-east corner of Wales, where we have seen such spikes in the last week or so. There are whole parts of Wales, Llywydd, where numbers are still very effectively suppressed, and an R level of 1.43 would not be a reflection of the circulation of the virus in those parts of Wales. So, a single figure for Wales at the moment is particularly affected by what we have seen in Caerphilly, in RCT and more latterly in Newport. Nevertheless, the TAC summary does suggest that the rate has crept back above 1 in Wales, and it's why we took the measures that we did on Friday of last week, to respond on a Wales-wide basis to that emerging picture.
The £32 million investment that my colleague Vaughan Gething announced on 18 August, Llywydd, will mean 24-hour working in labs in Swansea, in Cardiff and in Rhyl in October, and hot lab capacity more widely in Wales—at the moment in November. If we can, of course, draw it forward, we will want to do that. The investment is both a matter of capital investment but also employing more staff in those laboratories. We had 3,000 applications for the 160 jobs that will be recruited, and interviews for those posts began yesterday. So the sooner we are able to get those people in post, the sooner we will be able to get that lab capacity in active operation here in Wales. And when we have more capacity in that way, we will be able to think again about who we test, when we test them, including—I'm not suggesting that we've made that decision at all, but it will allow us to consider the issue of asymptomatic testing in a different way.

Adam Price AC: In six weeks' time, the UK Government's furlough scheme will end, and the looming cliff edge will leave thousands of workers facing the crippling uncertainty of unemployment. If a further rise in COVID cases means local lockdowns will have to be imposed in other areas over the coming months, and if the UK Government does not act, does the Welsh Government have a contingency plan to offer a local furlough, effectively, as well as financial support to businesses and local public services in the affected areas, as well as those unable to earn because they are self-isolating? I'm sure the First Minister would agree that it would be absolutely wrong to penalise people simply for being ill.

Mark Drakeford AC: I entirely agree with that point, Llywydd, and it's been made repeatedly by me, by Vaughan Gething, by the First Minister of Scotland in a call where I joined with her, and, indeed, the First Minister of Northern Ireland in calling on the UK Government not to bring the furlough scheme to a blunt end—to recalibrate it, to recast it and to add to it an ability to support the wages of those people who we are asking to self-isolate for 14 days. At the moment, there is a perverse incentive for those people who work on very low wages to go into work when you're not feeling well, because otherwise you have to rely on £95-worth of sick pay every week. A simple scheme in which the UK Government itself guaranteed the normal wage level of those people, or indeed did it in partnership with employers, would eliminate that perverse incentive. I think it would increase compliance with the rules that keep us all safe and would be a sensible investment by the UK Government, because you will be, in the way we often talk about in this Chamber, acting preventatively rather than having to pick up the costs that follow when that person does go into work, infects other people, leads to greater demand on public services and firms having to stop production, and so on.
My colleague Ken Skates is at the moment working on the third phase of the economic resilience fund here in Wales. Part of that consideration is the help that we can give to firms who find themselves caught up in local lockdowns here in Wales in future. Will our budget stretch to the income maintenance of people who are affected by the end of the furlough scheme or who need to self-isolate? I'm afraid we're simply not resourced to do that. Income maintenance is not a devolved function to the Welsh Government. Funds don't flow to us from the UK Government to support that, and it's much harder to see how we would be able, in an affordable way, to devise a scheme of the sort that Adam Price rightly draws attention to but that is equally rightly the responsibility of the UK Government to put in place.

Leader of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: First Minister, given the legal requirement to inform the Information Commissioner within 72 hours, and his guidance to inform those affected without undue delay, did you and/or Public Health Wales sit, I believe, for around two weeks on news of this major data leak?
Could I also ask you to clarify your version of the rule of six, which you insist must be different from England's? Why say that these six must be of the same extended household, formed of up to four households, not including children, but then that these four households, although forming an extended household, may not all meet at once if more than six?
Could I also remind you that you previously said that there was only a marginal public health case for non-medical face coverings? Your health Minister said that the Chief Medical Officer for Wales thinks that masks should be a matter of personal choice. What new evidence have you seen to remove that personal choice from people?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the rule of six I don't think is very difficult to follow. What we know is that coronavirus is being passed by people meeting inside each other's houses. That is what lies behind the transmission in Caerphilly. That is what lies behind the transmission in many parts of England. And in order to try to bring the position back under control, what we are proposing in Wales is that no more than six people should meet indoors at any one time; it limits the chain of transmission. It really is as simple as that. And when chains of transmission are driving up figures of people suffering from coronavirus in significant parts of Wales, and doing so quite alarmingly, then it is very important that the Government act to bring that back under control.
We have a more liberal regime here in Wales than elsewhere because four households are able to form a single extended household, and that itself provides an umbrella which helps to disrupt chains of transmission, but no more than six of those people should meet at any one time. We will allow primary school aged children to be part of that household beyond the six because of the evidence that those children don't suffer from coronavirus and don't transmit coronavirus in the way that adults do. It's a proportionate attempt to try not to interfere in people's freedoms more than the minimum necessary, but to do the minimum necessary in order to address the escalating numbers of coronavirus that we see in too many parts of Wales.
As far as face coverings are concerned, in our local lockdown plan, again published in the middle of August, Llywydd, we said that if the circulation of the virus in Wales moved beyond a certain threshold, we would revisit our advice on face coverings. At the end of last week, the rate in Wales went to 20 per 100,000 of the population, and has remained above 20 ever since. Twenty is the figure we use to identify foreign countries where if you've been abroad and you have to return to the United Kingdom, you have to self-isolate. It seemed to me to be again a proportionate way of marking that unfortunate threshold that we should ask people in Wales to do that marginal thing, because when you get to circulation of the virus at that level, marginal bits of help that assist us all in keeping it under control and driving it down become worthwhile.

Mark Reckless AC: In Sweden, there was no lockdown, as we've discussed before, First Minister, and there has to date been no significant resurgence in the virus; indeed, we've just lifted travel restrictions on Sweden. Yet in Spain, where there was a very severe lockdown, we're seeing a large resurgence of the virus. What then is the reasoning behind the Welsh Government's strategy of keeping people locked down throughout summer when people's immune systems are at that strongest, and when NHS capacity is at its greatest, only to delay increasing infections until we are going into winter? You've locked down my constituents in the Caerphilly council area, and even talked about the possibility ofcurfews and restrictions on alcohol sales as potential measures you may consider. Having taken people's summer away only for cases to rise again, do you accept that lockdown fatigue has taken hold and that you cannot keep people locked down forever? How much longer do you expect to drag out this pandemic in Wales through your restrictions?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the Member often appears to occupy a world that many of the rest of us don't occupy, but now he appears to have a different season in his clock as well. Wales was not locked down during the summer. Our tourism industry has resumed, our 'stay local' restrictions have been lifted, people have been able to meet in the outdoors, people have been able to meet indoors. It's absolutely nonsensical to say that the summer was lost here in Wales. What has really happened in Wales is that some people, a minority of people in Wales, have taken the summer as a sign that coronavirus was over, and the fact that they have been able to do so much more than they were previously has been read by them as a licence to do even more than was permitted, and we are seeing the results. We are seeing the results in the lives of people who are now suffering from this disease, and I'm afraid that we will see over the weeks to come the impact of that in people being admitted to hospital and calling on our intensive care unit beds again. So, very far from the Welsh Government denying people freedoms that they should have experienced, we have done our very best to restore freedoms whenever it has been safe to do so, and I am saddened by the fact that, at the moment, we are faced with a position where the Welsh experience of coronavirus, instead of improving, is worsening. We may all have to make those efforts again that we made earlier this year unless we are able to persuade all of those people—in the Member's constituency and otherwise—to act in a way that protects themselves, protects others and helps us all to keep Wales safe.

Support for Autistic People

Mark Isherwood AC: 3. What support has the Welsh Government provided to autistic people during the coronavirus pandemic? OQ55500

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the coronavirus crisis has been especially challenging for autistic people. Working with others, the Welsh Government has focused on practical help and specific guidance for those affected. Last month, for example, and jointly with the National Autistic Society, we published advice on face coverings for autistic people on public transport.

Mark Isherwood AC: The 'Left stranded' report published last week by the National Autistic Society and its partners shows that as well as significantly exacerbating long-established challenges autistic people face getting suitable social care and educational support, the coronavirus pandemic has had a severely detrimental impact on the mental health of autistic people and their families. How, therefore, will you respond to the report's call for the Welsh Government to: create an action plan to protect autistic people and their families in case of a second wave; prioritise the development of the code of practice on the delivery of autism services; strengthen the legal rights of autistic people and their families in Wales accordingly; publish the additional learning needs code ahead of moving to the new support system next year; and implement the commitment that all teachers receive mandatory autism training as part of their initial teacher education, alongside rolling out a public awareness campaign on autism, as is happening elsewhere in the UK?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, can I thank Mark Isherwood for drawing attention to the 'Left stranded' report, an important report? I know that the Member wrote yesterday to both the health and education Ministers drawing their attention to it.
As Mark Isherwood has said, there are three specific recommendations in the report for the Welsh Government. The first is to develop a code of practice on the delivery of autism services, and the Minister for Health and Social Services will issue a written statement shortly, before the end of this month, setting out the timetables for consultation and publication of the code.
The second recommendation was for the publication of the additional learning needs code and the implementation of it in 2021, and on 3 September the Minister for Education announced that the code and the regulations will be laid before the Senedd in February of next year, and that that will, indeed, allow the commencement of the Act and the phased roll out of it from September 2021.
The third recommendation concerns the national awareness campaign to which the Member drew attention, and our national autistic team and others—including those working in the field of initial teacher training—are working together to raise public awareness of autism in the community as a key theme of our implementation plans.

Helen Mary Jones AC: First Minister, you mentioned in your response to Mark Isherwood the code of practice around face coverings for autistic people, and you'll be very aware, I know, that as well as autistic people finding it sometimes difficult to wear a face mask, they can also find it difficult to communicate with somebody who is wearing a face mask, and the same would be true, for example, of deaf people who may need to lip read. Can you confirm this afternoon, First Minister—and I'm asking you this question in the context of a constituent who had an issue with this—that if a member of the public, an autistic person or a person with deafness issues, requests a member of staff in a shop to remove their face covering so that that deaf person or autistic person can more effectively communicate with them, that it is acceptable for the member of staff to do that, providing it is possible to maintain the 2m social distancing? My constituent's experience suggests that there may be some confusion on the part of shop staff in this regard.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Helen Mary Jones for that. I confirm that in the circumstances she has described it would be acceptable, but we do know that there is quite a lot of learning that the system has to absorb. It was one of the hesitations that the chief medical officer has always expressed about compulsory use of face coverings, that there have to be exceptions and we have to be sensitive to those people who for different reasons do not find the wearing of a face covering themselves possible or who find it difficult when others wear them. We will use all the exceptions that we put into place when face coverings were made compulsory on public transport in the new areas that we have made them compulsory as from Monday of this week, and there will, I'm afraid, be a short period in which sensitivity to some of these issues will have to be developed amongst people who haven't had to operate in this way up until now.

Test, Trace and Protect

Carwyn Jones AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on the test, trace and protect strategy for coronavirus? OQ55520

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Carwyn Jones for that question, Llywydd.The performance of our test, trace, protect service is a credit to our health boards and local authorities and has secured strong support from people across Wales. Since 21 June, 98 per cent of positive cases and 94 per cent of their close contacts have been successfully contacted and advised.

Carwyn Jones AC: I thank the First Minister for his answer. There have been some instances of people waiting for results, of course, where they've sought tests. Now, will the First Minister give an assurance that the Welsh Government is doing all that it can to make sure that, as it's done with test, trace and protect, it's working hard to ensure that results are made available in good time to those who need the results?

Mark Drakeford AC: Again, I thank the Member for that supplementary question and agree with him, of course, about the importance of timely responses to tests that have been conducted. As I said in an answer to an earlier question, Llywydd, the difficulties that are being experienced in Wales at the moment are the result of the well-identified difficulties in the lighthouse lab system, a system that was working very successfully only three weeks ago and which we very much want to see being successful again as rapidly as that is possible. The UK Minister responsible says to us that within three weeks that system will be properly back on track and providing timely results to people in Wales and beyond.
In the meantime, our own laboratories continue, I think, to provide timely results: 91 per cent, for example, of hospital tests done at Public Health Wales labs are returned within 24 hours. And what we are trying to do with our own capacity is to use the most rapid results where those results are needed in that fashion. So, I think I may have said already, Llywydd—apologies if I did—that around 99 per cent of tests carried out in the community in Caerphilly are being returned within 24 hours. We need the lighthouse labs to be back operating as they were a short number of weeks ago in order to provide the same service to those parts of the system in Wales who depend upon those laboratories as well as our own.

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, obviously any test and trace system requires confidence in the sharing of information. You've been asked twice this afternoon about the data breach that occurred in Public Health Wales—a substantial data breach. On the one question that was put to you, you were asked, 'When did the Government get alerted to the fact that this data had gone in to the public domain?' You failed to answer that question, so could you respond to my question, please, by providing an answer: when was the Welsh Government—not yourself, the Welsh Government—informed of this data breach and who in the Welsh Government was the first point of contact in the ministerial ranks to be alerted to the fact that 18,000 names had been put in the public domain?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I gave an answer that was within my knowledge. I know when I was informed. I don't know the answer to those other questions, nor would I expect to know them just standing up here in the Chamber. We will discover those answers, of course, and I'm very happy to communicate them to the Member.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: It's clear to me that something catastrophic has gone wrong with the testing system in the past fortnight, not just sluggishness in getting results back. Constituents of mine and people in other parts of Wales simply can't access the home test at all. They're having difficulties phoning 911. They can't get a slot in the local drive-through centre, which is far too far away for many people in any case. I agree entirely with independent SAGE scientist who have said for months that there's a real risk in the Welsh Government deciding to put its faith in a system that was run by the UK Government, and that what was needed was to develop a specifically Welsh testing system. Do you see now that putting your faith in the UK system was a mistake, and what we need now as a matter of urgency is to increase capacity here in Wales, capacity that you as a Government have control over?

Mark Drakeford AC: I agree with the Member that the problems in the lighthouse labs are serious and it's important that the UK Government addresses those problems as quickly as possible. I do not agree at all with him when he said, as part of the independence that Plaid Cymru are forever suggesting, that the best way would be to be totally independent in this field and not to use the capacity that already existed throughout the whole of the United Kingdom. The Scottish Executive hasn't done that at all, and it didn't make any sense for us to do it either. And to be honest, here on the floor of the Senedd, people were saying to me, 'Why aren't you using the capacity that's already available in other systems?' And so we have used that capacity, and until three weeks ago, that system worked well. The challenge now is to do the work on a UK level to put the lighthouse labs back to where they were in August, and that's what we want to support.

The Local Lockdown Introduced in Caerphilly

Delyth Jewell AC: 5. Will the First Minister make a statement on the local lockdown introduced in Caerphilly? OQ55522

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the start of last week saw a significant increase of coronavirus cases in the Caerphilly Borough County Council area, in absolute terms and as a proportion of people tested. On 8 September, following a request by public authorities, Ministers introduced measures to control the virus and to protect public health.

Delyth Jewell AC: I thank the First Minister for his answer. When the lockdown was announced last week, it threw many residents in Caerphilly into confusion, and I was inundated with messages from people who are anxious to find out what effect it would have on their circumstances. It took nearly 24 hours before guidance was published clarifying where the parents who shared custody of their children and live on either side of the county border could see their children, whether bereaved family members could attend funerals and whether people who were shielding earlier in the year would be asked to do so again. That was 24 hours of unnecessary distress and angst that could have been avoided if the guidelines had been published at the same time as the announcement. Now that areas like Newport and Merthyr and also possibly facing lockdowns, would you, First Minister, please provide a guarantee that detailed guidelines will in future be published as soon as any lockdowns are announced, and that any changes to guidelines are communicated in advance of implementation, so that people are given time to prepare?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I think the question completely fails to understand the context in which such decisions are made. They are not made at a leisurely pace. They're not made with an opportunity to put every dot and comma in its place before they are announced. You are dealing with a public health emergency. You are dealing with a situation in which a day's delay can put more people's lives at risk. And I say to the Member that her constituents and those who I know have contacted the Member for Caerphilly, Hefin David, are a good deal more understanding than she appears to be of the fact that the Welsh Government took action immediately we were asked to do so by those public authorities, and, within 24 hours, every bit of guidance that was necessary to help people to deal with the changed circumstances was available to them. Now, we wish to get that guidance to people as fast as we possibly can, but the sequence of events cannot be to provide guidance and then to announce when you're faced with an emergency, and you are faced with advice from people on the ground that action needs to be taken as fast as possible in order to protect people's lives—you take the actions first and then as fast as you can you provide the guidance to go alongside it. That is what we did in Caerphilly, and that is what of course we will aim to do should any similar situations arise in any other parts of Wales. And the people of Caerphilly, who have co-operated fantastically with the restrictions that have been put in place since, I think show a great deal more sense than the Member gives them credit for.

Hefin David AC: As a resident of the Caerphilly constituency, I've seen at first hand the sacrifices that people are making in complying with the restrictions in which we're living under, which were very clear in the outset, but have led to some questions from residents with specific scenarios. One I've been dealing with are people who've been required to cancel holidays, pre-booked holidays, and I have to say the travel industry has not responded well, particularly with regard to refunds, although there has been some scope for rebooking. And I have to say EasyJet and Ryanair have been particular standout examples of companies that seem to care little for the health and well-being and, indeed, legal obligations of their passengers, and that has been very disappointing.
The Welsh Government has done the right thing by writing to the travel industry and the insurance industry with very clear instructions for them, and what they need to do to respond to people to meet their legal obligations. The UK Government too now needs to step up and provide support for people who are affected by these circumstances—for those affected passengers. So, can I ask the First Minister has he had a response from the travel industry and the insurance industry; when does he expect to get that response if he hasn't had it so far; and would he also call on the UK Government to take immediate action for those passengers affected?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, can I begin by thanking the Member and his staff for the enormous efforts I know they have made over the last week to respond to literally thousands of enquiries from Caerphilly residents, and for the way that he has taken up issues of this sort on their behalf? He's right, of course, that Vaughan Gething and Lee Waters wrote ministerially to the association of British travel agents and of British insurers back on 10 September; they said in the letter that it's incumbent on the travel and insurance industries to take the necessary steps to mitigate the financial impact of restrictions on members of the travelling public whose travel plans have been disrupted. We are yet to receive a reply to that letter. My colleague Ken Skates will chair a quadrilateral meeting of Ministers later this week who have responsibilities in these areas, and he will certainly be raising these matters with the UK Government as well, because these impacts are not confined to Wales, Llywydd. There are people in many other parts of the United Kingdom who find restrictions imposed locally that have an impact on their ability to fulfil travel plans, but it is not their fault at all that they're in that position, and the industry needs to respond accordingly.

Council Tax Rebanding

Dai Lloyd AC: 6. Will the First Minister make a statement on council tax rebanding in Wales? OQ55528

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Dai Lloyd. The council tax base for Wales is more up-to-date and accurate than is the case in England and Scotland. The Welsh Government will publish a document discussing a range of alternative approaches to council taxation in Wales later in the autumn, including rebanding.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you very much for that.

Dai Lloyd AC: First Minister, you'll be aware that if a property has been improved or extended since it was placed in a council tax band, the Valuation Office Agency review the banding to take account of the alterations when it's sold. However, it is clear that there are problems with the system, with delays experienced in informing residents of changes. Now, constituents of mine last month found out that their council tax banding had jumped two bands, and are now being asked to pay the additional council tax—around £1,000—backdated to when the property was bought, in November 2018. Now, do you agree that this is unfair and will you agree to look into changing the guidance around the backdating of council tax payments in these circumstances?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, can I thank Dr Lloyd for raising this concerning issue? I've seen, as it happens, the letter that he wrote on 7 September to Julie James, and I've asked Welsh Government officials to contact him direct, if he's happy for that to happen, just to find out a few more details of the cases that lie behind the letter, so we can pursue them properly. The information I have is that there is less discretion than in other areas of council tax liability in the law in relation to the sort of rebanding to which Dr Lloyd's letter refers. There is a free appeals process for anybody who feels that the system has not been fairly implemented, and that is to the valuation tribunal. But the points that the Member raises are concerning ones, and, with his permission, we'll pursue them in more detail with him directly, so that we can see whether there is anything we can do to assist.

Finally, Janet Finch-Saunders. Who I can't see—

Mark Drakeford AC: Caroline Jones is next.

Yes. I was calling a supplementary—you stick to your job; I'll stick to mine. [Laughter.] That was very kindly meant, and that's your questions for this afternoon complete, First Minister. Sorry to tell you off right at the end.

Questions to the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip

Questions next to the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip, and the first question is from Darren Millar.

Freedom to Worship

Darren Millar AC: 1. Will the Deputy Minister make a statement on freedom to worship in Wales? OQ55484

Jane Hutt AC: I recognise and support the freedom to hold and practise belief in Wales. I'm pleased to have worked with the Wales faith communities forum and the reopening places of worship task and finish group to support the phased and safe reopening of places of worship.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. One of the issues that has been raised with me by members of various faith communities, but particularly the Christian community, is the impact of the restrictions on the ability to worship through song in our churches at the moment, for congregational singing. I don't know whether you are familiar with recent research, which was published by the University of Bristol, which seems to suggest that singing doesn't produce substantially more respiratory particles than speaking at a similar volume. Therefore, will you look again at the current coronavirus restrictions in relation to worship in churches, and the ability of congregations to sing as part of their worship, and consider that piece of research in order to assist your decision?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Darren Millar, for that supplementary question. I would say at the outset that the Welsh Government is very grateful to our Wales faith communities forum, and you're well aware of the full and diverse membership of that, and their advice and guidance they've given us—they have a task and finish group—advice and guidance they've given us on reopening places of worship. And they have reopened on a safe basis, in terms of their advice, guidance and the science. But I am very well aware that music and singing are an important part of services and ceremonies. It's greatly missed, and we're actively looking at this, based on scientific advice again, and the guidance from the task and finish and ceremonies group. I hope we'll able to make further announcements.

Modern Slavery and Human Trafficking

Laura Anne Jones AC: 2. What action is the Welsh Government taking to prevent modern slavery and human trafficking? OQ55510

Jane Hutt AC: Through working with partner organisations across the UK, our delivery of awareness raising, accredited training, and through improved intelligence gathering to support criminal investigations and support for victims, the Welsh Government is at the forefront of the fight against these appalling crimes.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Deputy Minister. The anti-slavery charity, Unseen UK, has warned that, due to the economic downturn due to the current crisis, we are likely to see an increase in human trafficking—the two things normally going hand in hand. Will the Deputy Minister assure me that she will take action to try and prevent this, to raise awareness of and recognition of the signs of modern slavery?

Jane Hutt AC: I would thank again the Member for that additional question, because it is vital that we recognise that this can be an issue in terms of the adverse impact of COVID-19, which could lead to an increase in trafficking. What's very important—. As I've said, it's about co-ordinated action. The response to slavery in Wales was bolstered, as, of course, we know, by the appointment of the Welsh Government anti-slavery co-ordinator, who's working actively with key agencies to determine scale, types and location of slavery in Wales, but also improving that intelligence and recording of incidents in Wales, very much working with the UK Government using the national referral mechanism and looking at that in terms of the impact of COVID-19.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Further to the previous question, we're seeing data published in June showing that, for the first time, Minister, since 2016, the reports of suspected modern slavery in the UK were down by 14 per cent, and this is raising the worry that it's actually that victims are being pushed further out of sight and away from seeking help. So, can I ask our Welsh Government to make formal representations to UK Ministers, to first of all give the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority the resources to do their job, as they are at full stretch already, and also to urge UK Ministers to speed up the national referral mechanisms for victims to access care from housing and healthcare to legal aid, because this is a process that can currently take from six weeks to, indeed, several years? Thank you, Minister.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you to Huw Irranca-Davies. Following on that important point about the impact of the pandemic, and just to add to the points that I made earlier on, we are continuing to work with our partners in the National Crime Agency, police, Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority, but also including all those non-governmental organisations and charities, such as BAWSO, New Pathways and Barnardo's in Wales, raising awareness of slavery, dealing with any incidents that are reported, rescuing and supporting victims where possible. And I think the interesting issue is that reports across Wales have remained consistent. We're in regular contact with the Home Office modern slavery unit, and they are actually now reviewing the national referral mechanism process. And I think your point about access to legal aid is crucial. And we have to recognise, of course, that modern slavery is a reserved matter, and the Home Office will be, obviously, crucially important to take these messages back in terms of the impact of the pandemic, so that we can be aware of and tackle trafficking.

David J Rowlands AC: As the Chamber will know, I have raised these issues a number of times since being elected to the Senedd. Yet despite the many calls from across the Chamber to investigate the practices employed in particular in car washes, there appears to be absolutely no action taken with regard to these establishments. This is particularly disappointing given that a number of issues are present with regard to their operation—the long hours served by attendants, often 10 hours a day, seven days a week; the low pay, said to be around £3 per hour; the sub-standard accommodation for these workers; the propensity for money laundering, given that all transactions appear to be cash, often to many thousands of pounds per week; the low pay, said to be around—sorry, to the environmental issues, with the considerable volumes of effluent generated at these sites going directly into water drainage systems and hence the rivers; but, of course, worst of all, the clear exploitation of people working on these sites. One has to ask, Deputy Minister, why nothing has been done to investigate or even close these operations, although they have been in existence for over a decade.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I will acknowledge that David Rowlands has mentioned this more than once in this Chamber. I'd just like to briefly, in terms of employment, refer to the ethical employment in supply chains code of practice, which was launched in 2017, aimed at making supply chains transparent, but also preventing exploitation of workers. And it was actually a first for Wales and the UK, and over 200 organisations have signed up to the code of practice, with the majority of Welsh public sector bodies signed up too. But I would also like to pay tribute to Joyce Watsonwith her cross-party group on human trafficking, if I don't get the opportunity again this afternoon.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, acts of modern slavery are becoming a scary reality for the many and this crime is often very difficult to spot. One simple question from me: the Home Office have got a real part to play in this, but what can the Welsh Government do to stop this being a hidden crime?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, until recently, I would say that slavery was a hidden crime. It's still under-reported and these questions and concerns have been raised this afternoon. And that's why we introduced new data collection systems in Wales and we continue to work with partners to develop that better evidence base—Huw Irranca-Davies referred to that as well—that more accurately reflects the level of slavery in Wales so that we can tackle it.

Section 1 of the Equality Act 2010

Mick Antoniw AC: 3. Will the Deputy Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's implementation of Section 1 of the Equality Act 2010? OQ55519

Jane Hutt AC: The socioeconomic duty will come into force on 31 March 2021. We're working closely with public bodies to prepare for the duty and, earlier this year, we co-produced guidance, and further resources to guide public bodies will be published shortly.

Mick Antoniw AC: Deputy Minister, thank you very much for that answer and that very progressive step that's being taken. You'll know that, historically, girls and women have traditionally been less likely in schools and education institutions to take up the STEM subjects—the science, the technology, engineering and maths. And you yourself have very much been a staunch advocate of actually repairing that inequality gap that has existed. Now, during the COVID crisis, what we have seen is the incredible number of female scientists who have really been at the forefront of research and innovation. I'm wondering what ideas Welsh Government might have to use that as an example for actually motivating and promoting the increased take-up amongst girls, amongst women, of the STEM subjects for the future.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I thank Mick Antoniw for raising that and drawing our attention—because we've all seen it—to the incredible contribution made by those women scientists. Of course, the global pandemic has highlighted the vital role that STEM plays in the world today. We've never had more STEM professionals, scientists, in the public eye as we've had in recent months.
But I'm very pleased to chair the women in STEM board. We're meeting on 15 October. The effect of the pandemic will certainly be discussed and, in fact, we will look at that in terms of that increased profile of female scientists in terms of the appeal and relevance of STEM subjects. And that will be very important, I think, in terms of impact on our new Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill going through, now, the Welsh Parliament, but considering how that can reach more girls and students from disadvantaged backgrounds and, of course, seeing this as an intersectional issue as well as the diversity that we want to seek in the delivery of STEM science and delivery of STEM professionalism and expertise.

A More Equal Wales

John Griffiths AC: 4. How will Welsh Government policies for a more equal Wales evolve following the experience of COVID-19? OQ55525

Jane Hutt AC: The First Minister has been clear that the Welsh Government will put equality and human rights considerations at the centre of the response to the pandemic and recovery in Wales. This will be the guiding principle as we take forward key policy developments over the coming months.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, those living in our more deprived communities have suffered disproportionately during the pandemic in terms of their health, economically and socially, and one aspect of this is higher rates of smoking in these communities—those are significant for vulnerability to the virus but also in terms of lower life expectancy generally. Thankfully, smoking is in decline, with restrictions in public places playing an important part in helping to achieve that. But, nonetheless, the terrible toll on health in Wales continues. So, Minister, would Welsh Government consider extending the existing restrictions, including outdoor areas of cafes and restaurants, which I think is particularly significant now during the pandemic, as those outdoor areas are expanding and growing, and also in relation to events, youth sport events, so that there may be restrictions on smoking at and around those?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, thank you, John Griffiths, for drawing attention to the role of smoking in health inequalities. Just to say that ensuring that the health inequity caused by smoking is reduced—that is a priority for this Welsh Government. You've referred to areas where we could widen the ban on smoking. Clearly, our immediate plan is to introduce a ban on smoking, as all Members are aware, in public playgrounds, school grounds and in hospital grounds. But, we are committed to our long-term goal of making more of Wales's public spaces smoke free and helping people to make positive changes to their health and well-being, and we intend to progress work in the next Senedd term to extend the smoking ban to outdoor areas of cafes and restaurants and city and town centres.

Leanne Wood AC: Policies to create a more equal Wales should be implemented in consultation with local authorities and local communities, and this is especially the case in plans for Wales to play its part in global efforts to support refugees. However, reports that a military training camp in Pembrokeshire will be used to house 250 refugees, with little or no consultation with the local authority prior to the UK Home Office's decision becoming public, are clearly very concerning. Can the Minister tell us whether the Welsh Government was consulted, and does the Minister agree with me that people seeking asylum should be housed safely and supported in communities, and not detained on a military base?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I thank Leanne Wood very much for raising that question this afternoon in the Senedd. We were only notified of the Home Office proposals on Friday. We are yet to receive the full explanation that we have requested. The Welsh Government is committed to being a nation of sanctuary. We are committed to that, but we need to ensure that the needs of asylum seekers who come to us—and that's, of course, through our refugee and asylum seeking coalition, which I chair—that those needs are met, and are fully met and understood in terms of opportunities for people to integrate and settle. We are working with all relevant partners now to ensure that these concerns are addressed, in terms of this proposal that came forward on Friday. That obviously has to include local authorities and the communities affected, but what's crucial is that public health issues are considered at the forefront in terms of the impact of the pandemic.

Question 5, Rhianon Passmore.

Can you unmute yourself, Rhianon Passmore?

Rhianon Passmore AC: That question has been withdrawn, Llywydd.

Okay, you don't choose to ask the question that's on the order paper.

Question 5 [OQ55527] not asked.

Question 6, therefore, Mike Hedges.

Voluntary Groups Working with the Deaf Community

Mike Hedges AC: 6. How is the Welsh Government ensuring support for voluntary groups working with the deaf community? OQ55482

Jane Hutt AC: Volunteers across Wales continue to play a vital role in enabling people to stay safe throughout the COVID-19 pandemic. In order to support voluntary groups, including those working with the deaf community, £11 million has been made available through our third sector resilience fund.

Mike Hedges AC: I thank the Minister for that response. For the record, my sister is profoundly deaf, and I am also president of the Swansea Hard of Hearing Group. COVID has had a serious effect on the deaf community, as masks stop the ability of deaf people to lip-read, or even know that somebody is talking to them. What is being done to promote sign language and sign language interpreters to support the deaf community?

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Mike Hedges for that important question. Just to give examples of how we've targeted our funding: £1.1 million of support given to disability organisations, including the Cardiff Deaf Centre. The Welsh Government, of course, has ensured the presence of BSL interpretation at our COVID-19 news conferences, alongside a range of accessible formats on key correspondence through the pandemic, such as BSL videos for our Keep Wales Safe campaign.
But, we've also set up an accessible communications group, advising Welsh Government. The First Minister mentioned the fact we've had many meetings of the disability equality forum. We've also looked at the impact of face coverings, and, of course, that was mentioned earlier on in terms of the impact for autistic people.
So, it is crucial that we listen to the people who are impacted in terms of COVID-19 and ensure that we get that feedback, and then take action accordingly and raise awareness, as the First Minister said, because that's crucial for those who are encountering and engaging and supporting and enabling deaf people to participate fully in society, community and the workplace.

Broadband at Gypsy and Traveller Sites

Jenny Rathbone AC: 7. How many Gypsy and Traveller sites in Wales have sufficient broadband in order to provide children with adequate at-home learning in the event of further lockdowns? OQ55501

Jane Hutt AC: Almost half of local authority sites have at least some form of internet access. My officials are working with local authorities to identify sites without adequate broadband infrastructure and agree funding for projects that enable internet connectivity on sites, at up to 100 per cent of eligible costs.

Jenny Rathbone AC: So, from what you're saying, Minister, I gather that half the Gypsy and Traveller sites have no broadband to enable pupils to be able to access the curriculum in the event that they're unable to attend school because of further lockdowns. What conversations have you had with the local government Minister, and indeed the education Minister, to ensure that this is a top priority for local authorities, given that your department has made money available specifically for this purpose? It's disappointing that this work hasn't been carried out over the summer once the lockdown restrictions were relaxed. So, I'd be very grateful if it would be possible to publish the sites that still do not have any broadband whatsoever.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you to Jenny Rathbone, and I also acknowledge that Jenny Rathbone chairs the Gypsy/Traveller/Roma cross-party group, which has an important influence on listening as well as working with those who are impacted. We do indeed meet with those who are supporting and representing Gypsy/Roma/Travellers at the Wales race forum and, following advice and guidance from them in terms of barriers to internet access, I did write to the Minister for Education to ensure that local authorities are challenged and supported as well financially to improve outcomes for Gypsies, Romaand Travellers, particularly for the children and young people in terms of accessing that blended learning.
So, I think the issues now that we're working on—and I will report back, clearly, to the Senedd on this—is that we're asking local authorities—. They've got the money, 100 per cent funding. We're asking them to come forward. We want to know all forms of need in terms of internet access, including high-speed mobile data, site-wide Wi-Fi, and all those gaps that may exist, so that we can ensure those children and young people have access to learning, and indeed adults as well in terms of their life opportunities.

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement—Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There is one change to today's agenda: the Counsel General and Minister for European Transition will make a statement on the UK Government Internal Market Bill. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Suzy Davies AC: As we're embarking on the scrutiny of the curriculum Bill, I think it would be helpful if we could have some clarity on protecting the existence of Welsh-medium schools. I know the education Minister, in recent exchanges about the requirement to opt out of English, has said that this is not about the medium of teaching, it's about subjects, but I think that prompts the question then about how schools are currently categorised and what protections are currently in place. I wonder if the education Minister, or Minister for Welsh language—because I'm not quite sure which one it is—could update the Senedd via a statement about work that's being done on the language categorisations of schools in, say, I don't know, maybe the last two years, in view of the strategy for 1 million Welsh speakers and of course the curriculum Bill, to see if there are any possible conflicts in that. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you to Suzy Davies for raising that this afternoon. In the first instance, I will have a conversation with both Ministers to better understand what might be the best way to update the Senedd on that particular issue. But, in any case, I'll ensure that you do get a written response to that.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Leanne Wood AC: Some people who are exempt from wearing face masks are being challenged or refused entry into shops, and many small business owners in particular are telling me of the difficulties that they are facing policing the wearing of face masks. So, will the Government look into providing some sort of official means of proof for people to show if they're exempt from wearing a face mask?
I also wanted to say 'thank you and well done' to all the staff who stepped in at the last minute in the Rhondda after the UK Government decided to reduce the number of tests per day to just 60. I'm still getting people who say they have symptoms of COVID-19 but cannot get a test. Now, how can this happen in the Rhondda when we've been told that we're on the verge of a local lockdown? This failure could put lives at risk, it could help a second wave. So, could we have a statement outlining what alternative plans the Government have so that we're not at the mercy of Westminster for this crucial testing operation?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you to Leanne Wood for raising those issues. On the second, which relates to the availability of COVID-19 tests, I would respectfully refer the Member to the comments made by the First Minister during First Minister's question earlier on this afternoon, because I do think that he addressed that specific issue in some depth.
On the issue of face masks, I do agree that it's absolutely important that there is a greater level of understanding that not everybody will be able to wear a face mask for a multitude of reasons, and I will ensure that I have a conversation with the health Minister to explore what more we can do to ensure that we do engender that atmosphere where people feel comfortable not wearing a mask if they can't do so because of a mental or physical reason, and that people have more understanding that there are people out there who might have a very, very good reason not to be wearing a face mask.

Alun Davies AC: Minister, you'll have heard the exchange earlier between Darren Millar and the Deputy Minister on the issue of singing and worship in churches and chapels and elsewhere. It is an issue that is causing some great distress amongst people within the community. You may also have seen BBC Wales Today last week, where Beaufort male voice choir was practising in Ebbw Vale rugby club to avoid some of the difficulties that are faced in practising indoors. It is important that, as we move through these very, very difficult months, there are points of normality in people's lives that enable them to accept and abide by all the other regulations that we need to impose at different times. Would it be possible for the Government to look hard again at some of the evidence that is being produced to enable choirs to practise and singing to take place in places of worship, and also the situation of brass bands and others as well, to enable people, during the long winter months, to ensure that there are elements of normality in their lives?
The second issue I'd like to seek the Government's time for, in terms of a statement or debate, is that about access to public transport. With schools and colleges going back over the last few weeks, we have recognised that there are some significant difficulties with public transport, particularly, perhaps, in areas such as Blaenau Gwent, where people have not been able to get to local colleges easily and where people are not able to access public services easily because of the difficulties with mainly bus services.
The Grange University Hospital will be opened in November and we all very much welcome this enormous investment in our local health service, but we need to ensure that there are public transport routes and public transport services enabling people to reach that hospital, whether it's for treatment or for visiting when that will be possible. So, access to services through public transport continues to be a very major issue and I'd be grateful if the Government could make a statement on that.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you to Alun Davies for raising these issues. I know that he is a passionate supporter—even the president, maybe, I think—of Beaufort male voice choir. And I obviously declare an interest, as the Member for Gower, given the fact that we also have some of the best male voice choirs and brass bands in the world in that constituency too. So, yes, I do give that commitment that we will continue to keep that evidence under review, because we recognise the true value that being a member of a brass band or a choir has. And, of course, I see Mick Antoniw, the famous supporter of the Cory Band, also in the Chamber this afternoon. So, we've got lots of rivalry about our local brass bands and it just shows how passionate we are about them. So, yes, absolutely, we will continue to keep that advice under review as the evidence continues to develop.
And I do know that it is the intention of the Minister for the economy to bring forward a statement on buses very shortly, and you'll see that added to the business statement before too long.

Mark Isherwood AC: Unmute, right. I call for a Welsh Government statement on the approval and distribution of clear face masks in Wales. Action on Hearing Loss Cymru has highlighted the disproportionate effect on people who are deaf or have hearing loss of face mask use during the coronavirus pandemic, where inaccessible communication can also present a safety risk. Visual cues, such as facial expression and lip reading, are essential for communication, but personal protective equipment in health and social care settings is masking these visual cues.
Now the UK Government has announced the approval and dissemination of a clear mask for use in health and social care settings in the UK, Action on Hearing Loss is seeking clarification from the Welsh Government on: what the allocation of the first clear masks will be for Wales; will the allocation cover both health and social care settings, including care homes; how will applicable third sector organisations, such as themselves, access a supply; and how will the Welsh Government ensure ongoing supply to meet demand? I call for a statement accordingly.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you to Mark Isherwood for raising that, and I think this is the third time in this afternoon's session when we have explored the difficulties that people who are deaf, who have hearing loss are experiencing at the moment as a result of the usage of face masks. So, it is a really important issue and I will ensure that Action on Hearing Loss does have an answer to their particular questions about how those specially adapted masks will be distributed to ensure that they're distributed to people who most need them and who will most benefit from them.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Minister, could we have a statement on the steps that the Government is taking to respond proactively to the housing crisis that we see in so many communities across Wales? It is a crisis, of course, driven mainly, but not only, by the fact that an increasing number of homes are now being bought as second homes or holiday accommodation. It's intensified also by the fact that more people are now moving out of cities and more populated areas to rural Wales in response to the pandemic.
Now, you heard in the Finance Committee yesterday that many Members felt that the Government should be making better use of its taxation powers in order to seek to address this issue. I would like to know what new steps the Government is considering to that end. But mainly, of course, we need to look at specific steps within the planning regime, and certainly we need to manage the ability to change the use from a residential property into a second home. There are examples of steps taken in other parts of the UK, in Cornwall specifically in terms of second homes. In Guernsey, in terms of the housing market, there is an open market and a closed market there, and there are examples across Europe and beyond of the kinds of things that the Government should now be considering.
So, I'd like to know what plans are in place by Government to respond to this crisis. Because we all know, of course, and we all recall what happened in the 1980s, and that was a direct result of the failure of politicians in addressing the problem. Now, nobody wants to see us back in that situation, of course, because if that were the case, then that would represent a grave failure from the point of view of the Welsh Government and a grave failure for the Senedd, and that would be an insult to devolution.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, of course, we've had excellent success over the course of this Senedd in terms of meeting our Welsh Government commitment to the people of Wales, that we would build 20,000 new affordable homes over the course of this Senedd. And I'm really pleased to be able to say that we are absolutely on course to have hit that target by the end of this Senedd term.
I recognise all of the issues that Llyr has described in terms of the pressures on the housing market, particularly in some parts of Wales, and I know that the Minister for housing is participating remotely this afternoon, but will have heard that request for a statement or a debate in order to explore those issues further. FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

David Rees AC: Trefnydd,tourism has been one of the sectors that have been actually badly affected by the pandemic, but yet tourism can also be one of the sectors that can drive our regeneration of the economy as we move forward. Now, with that in mind, obviously, we want to try and promote tourism and promote projects that develop tourism as much as possible. To that end, the Rhondda tunnel has actually always been one of those projects that could deliver on the tourism idea. I have raised this before in this Chamber, that the ownership of the tunnel has been one of the big stumbling blocks to the progression of the work there. Can I have a statement from the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales as to what progress has been made on the transfer of ownership from Highways England to the Welsh Government or to governments within Wales so that we can get on with the project, so that by the time we look at a situation where we really want to regenerate our economy in our Valleys, the project could actually be going ahead and that tunnel could be one of the things that attract people here?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you to David Rees for raising that, and he knows that I share his enthusiasm for that particular project. Transport officials are currently in discussion with the Department for Transport on the terms of any potential transfer of the tunnel, as well as with Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council on the development of a business case for its future use. I think, as I understand it, one of the outstanding big issues, of course, is in terms of taking on an asset and taking on risk and what funding should come alongside with that, but that is something that I understand is currently continuing to be discussed. The Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport did meet with the council and the Rhondda Tunnel Society at the beginning of this month, and I know that future meetings are again being arranged to discuss the future management and that issue of the ownership of the tunnel. So, there's certainly continued work going on in this space, even though we've been facing a pandemic.

Neil McEvoy AC: The residents of Victoria Wharf in Cardiff bought what they thought were their dream homes, but it turns out that they've bought into a nightmare. The properties are worthless now, they're unable to borrow off them, they're unable to sell them and there are real concerns about fire safety. These residents do not now sleep easily in their beds at night, and the blocks were signed off by Cardiff council and the developers. So, the statement that I would like off the Government is: what do they propose to do to help these residents in Cardiff, and not only in Cardiff, but all over Wales? There are people in awful predicaments, where it seems that these buildings are quite simply not safe. What will be done?

Rebecca Evans AC: The Minister for Housing and Local Government has made it clear repeatedly that building owners and developers should face up to what is, essentially, a very strong moral responsibility and put right these faults at their cost or they do risk their professional reputation, because it's absolutely critical that people do feel safe and secure in their homes and we are committed to improving building safety here in Wales. I do know, again, that it is the intention of the Minister to provide the Senedd with an update in the not-too-distant future on the work that we've been doing in terms of that building safety programme in order to address the concerns that came to light following the tragic Grenfell fire.

Mick Antoniw AC: Trefnydd, one of the consequences of COVID has been that many of us have been getting more exercise. We've been taking walks in some of the incredible and beautiful countryside that we have around us. I regularly now walk through the Coedely woods, through the Smaelog, and the reconnection with nature is really something that is perhaps one of the positives that have come out of this pandemic.
But alongside that is the appalling behaviour of a minority of people and the amount of fly-tipping, the amount of rubbish that is being dumped. I've been photographing this. At one stage, I couldn't walk more than a couple of metres without coming across fly-tipping. Rhondda Cynon Taf council has been tremendous at not only monitoring social media, but then going along and clearing this up, but, of course, at a cost to all those members of the public who don't engage in that sort of anti-social behaviour.
The point I make is this: Rhondda Cynon Taf have been very vigorous in prosecuting, there have been a number of prosecutions, but the fines are no deterrent. They're far less than the benefit the individual gets, and in no way reflect the cost to the council of having to clear up these sites. Now, I've written to the Counsel General on this point, but it seems to me it would be very helpful if there was a Government-time debate here where we talked about the legislation that exists, the penalties that exist, how the penalties have now got to relate to the cost of clearing up fly-tipping, and how we've got to campaign against this anti-social behaviour. Do you agree with me that now would be a good time to actually start talking about this, and to seriously look at the legislation to improve our ability to deter and to prosecute those who engage in this terrible anti-social behaviour?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'd like to join Mick Antoniw in congratulating RCT on the work that they've been doing on this particular issue, and being very proactive in their response to it, because fly-tipping is never justified in any circumstances, and obviously during the COVID-19 lockdown we worked particularly closely with local authorities and businesses to ensure that the public were aware of their responsibility to store their waste safely until the sites reopened. We know that not everybody did that, and we have seen the results of that.
We're currently exploring options on how best to further assist those local authorities and Natural Resources Wales in their enforcement work. Obviously, this area involves both items that are devolved to us here in Wales—so, those environmental issues, for example—but there are also some issues to do with the reserved justice system. I can confirm that we will be pursuing this with the UK Government in the first instance, and I'll be very pleased to provide an update on those discussions.

I thank the Trefnydd.
We will now have a short break and will postpone broadcasting for the time being.

Plenary was suspended at 15:12.

The Senedd reconvened at 15:25, with the Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) in the Chair.

3. Statement by the Minister for Education: School Reopening

[Inaudible.]—that short break, and with item 3 on our agenda this afternoon, which is a statement by the Minister for Education on schools reopening. I call on the Minister for Education, Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Colleagues, learners in Wales have been going back to nursery, schools and colleges over the last two weeks, and I want to thank them, teachers, tutors and all education staff for the way in which they have dealt with and, indeed, are still dealing with COVID-19. I want to thank them for their hard work, their resilience and their co-operation as we navigate our way through these most difficult of times.
Of course, I recognise that in any situation such as this, it is not without any risk. However, I continue to be guided by the latest medical and scientific advice in making any decision on the safe return of learners. My priorities throughout this pandemic have been the safety and well-being of staff and learners, whilst delivering maximum learning with minimal disruption to our young people.
I believe that going back to school is critical for children’s development and for their health and their well-being, especially those who are most vulnerable in our communities, and I'm grateful for the effort that schools, colleges, local authorities and trade unions have made to ensure that school and college environments are as safe as possible for all learners. These measures include increased cleaning, hygiene stations for staff and learners and reduced movement and contact between groups.
Wales’s technical advisory group were also clear that we must have a robust trace and protect strategy in place as a prerequisite for a wider reopening of schools. And as has been rehearsed earlier in the Chamber, this has been a real success story here in Wales, with not only a high number of contacts being traced within 24 hours, but also a clear approach to outbreak management, which will help support schools in moving forward.
Of course, our education and nursery settings may be fully open, but this is not going back to normal. For staff and learners alike it is a continuing challenge after so many months of distance learning, and the possibility of further spikes in cases and the disruption that that causes. This is a difficult time as education settings are still having to plan for different models of learning as well as managing contact and social distancing within their school environments. Therefore, along with the regions, we have provided guidance to ensure that learning and progression continues and remains safe.
It is very likely that time away from school has had a negative impact on many of our young people. They may need support to be ready to learn once again and to reintegrate into the school environment. We may see significant well-being challenges, over and above what we would normally expect at the start of a new academic year. Key areas of learning may have been lost during the time away from school and schools will need flexibility to address these issues. I want schools and other settings to be able to respond to this and invest time in supporting learners’ well-being. We cannot expect schools to execute all of their duties in respect of our curriculum for all learners in all circumstances, given circumstances we all face, and therefore I have decided to modify the basic curriculum and associated assessment requirements to a 'reasonable endeavours' basis for the first 30 days of September. In doing this I want to provide schools with flexibility to reintegrate students and to develop resilient and relevant learning plans. This is about helping schools as they return to full-time learning in their buildings.
But we know that many learners have not progressed as much as they would ordinarily have done so, and we need to address this. As teachers and heads continue to welcome pupils back, I know that they will be assessing learners’ needs and development, building on the check-in period for everyone before the summer break. My clear message to them is that funding is there in council and school budgets to recruit extra staff and teaching assistants for this academic year. Building on their understanding of where learners are in their learning, our investment of over £29 million is targeted to ensure that extra teachers and support is there for years 11, 12 and 13, as well as disadvantaged and vulnerable learners of all ages.
I know that teachers, as well as parents, share my concern about potential learning loss and the attainment gap. This month will help heads and teachers better understand how they can use the funding provided to support extra coaching, personalised learning programmes and additional time and resources for those pupils facing exams.
We have also been working with directors of education and education trade unions to develop guidance to support ongoing provision in schools, and this includes clear advice on social distancing. We have issued advice to schools and education workforce unions on COVID-19 more generally, and via Dysg, and we will continue to provide information and guidance as the needs arise.
We have also been working collectively across the Government to address issues around school transport, with £10 million additional funding allocated to assist local authorities. This money has helped them provide additional capacity to meet statutory requirements following the updated guidance issued recently by the traffic commissioner.
As we all understand, situations can change rapidly during a pandemic. I can assure you, however, that we will continue to work within and across Government, and with our other partners, to provide guidance and advice to ensure the safety of our staff and our young people. And together, even in these uncertain times, we will continue to focus on raising standards for all, reducing the attainment gap and ensuring that we have a system that is a source of pride and enjoys public confidence.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you, Minister. Can I just associate myself with your opening remarks regarding teachers and staff, and can I include governors in that? It's been a really difficult time for everybody, including yourselves, but most importantly our constituents.
Thank you very much for your statement. I think we have to start off with the top line of my position, which is that schools must stay open unless they absolutely—absolutely—have to close. And while, of course, the situation with exams is difficult, and perhaps for another day, I think we do need to look a little bit at the history of the opening and closing of schools because, obviously, back in March, we all understood the urgency of limiting contact of every kind. We had a dangerous enemy that we didn't really understand, but we did also understand that there would be an inevitable hit to our children's education, and while school leaders did turn themselves inside out trying to provide the best that they could for our learners, I think we know by now that there was a great inconsistency of pupil contact, of the accessibility of online content, the ability of families to really engage with that online content, and the willingness of children to stick with it, the willingness to stick with that learning. We've all had a bit of COVID fatigue, I guess.
And that's why we were very supportive, actually, of your plans to open schools over four weeks in the summer term to check in and catch up, as you said, so that teachers and learners could evaluate what they needed next. And I think that's perhaps where it started to unravel for Government. Letting the country think one thing, when, actually, you hadn't really nailed it down on the delivery of that fourth week, when you had powers that you could have used to stop councils saying 'no' to schools, is where I'm starting to take issue with what I thought was a good start, if I'm honest. Since then, there's been, certainly more latterly, more of a sense of 'whatever you want, schools' going on. Of course, there are operational decisions that only schools can make, and your guidance has been very helpful with that, but there are occasions when you need mandates; there are occasions when you need rules. Schools don't understand the science, whereas you, as you said today, have continued to be guided by the latest medical and scientific advice in making any decisions on the safe return of learners. You have that information; school leaders don't necessarily. And they are certainly are struggling to make ideas stick on the spot when they don't have that reassurance that behind them is a Minister who can say, 'Here's the law, that's what you can rely on.'
When you say fully open is not back to normal, obviously that's true of the physical layout in our schools, but I think we do need some reassurance that the level and standard of acquisition of learning does need to be nearer back to normal. I'm not encouraged by your statement that we cannot expect schools to execute all of their duties in respect of the curriculum for all learners in all circumstances during this time. And we know they have had time. We agreed with you that a fortnight was a good time to let schools get the hang of what their learners needed, and I'm curious to know whether this extension for the first 30 days of September is something that you consulted on, because I don't believe it is, and whether we are back in a situation where we are suspending the need to stick to the curriculum.
Have you been successful in persuading your colleagues of what I said in my opening statement, that schools must be the last to close down, particularly in the event of a lockdown? I see that you've expressed great confidence in the TTP strategy, so I'm hoping that that is the ammunition you've taken to Cabinet colleagues in making the argument that schools should stay open. But if you weren't successful in that, have you already decided what you will mandate in the event of a national lockdown, to make sure that learning wasn't impacted on in the way it was before? Are you thinking of mandating live-streaming of lessons, for example? Have you done an assessment of how much of the IT equipment that was distributed—something we supported—to make sure that students are making the best of them? Or in the more likely situation of localised lockdowns, which will hopefully mean students are out of face-to-face learning for a fortnight at a time at the most, are you going to be insisting that schools should require virtual attendance to lessons, which in the majority of cases should be provided virtually as timetabled?
I'd like a little bit of detail on the money that you found for new teachers and catch-up, how that's going to be used, and how it will be used in further education colleges. I'd be keen to learn how the belated monitoring and evaluation of what happened between March and July has affected decisions you're likely to make. And I'd be keen to hear what you can tell us now on how any further lockdowns would be likely to impact on that already pared down syllabus that you referred to earlier, particularly for those taking general qualifications later in—at the end of this academic year, sorry.
You didn't say very much about testing in schools. I wondered if you could tell us whether you or Public Health Wales have done anything on temperature testing in schools at all. If you have—that's an open question; genuinely curious to hear about that. And then I suppose I repeat my questions in the same context for further education, where the different age profiles make face-to-face teaching more difficult, because there are different regulations on social distancing relating to different age groups. I wonder if you could clarify for me how far you can mandate certain actions in a college as compared to a school, and do you have any particular powers through which you can satisfy yourself on that question of the quality of learning during a period of lockdown in FE institutions as well as schools? Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: It's quite a long list of questions—I'll try and rattle through them as quickly as possible. Can I begin, though, by thanking Suzy Davies for her recognition of the tremendous efforts that have gone on in the education workforce in its entirety during this time? I'm very grateful to her for recognising that.
Can I assure her that keeping education open is a priority across the Government, and we will take all necessary steps necessary as a Government to ensure that children's learning is disrupted as little as possible? Indeed, you will have already heard the First Minister and the health Minister speak about some of the issues around greater mixing of households, which we have not proceeded with, to give us the headroom to allow schools to open. So, difficult decisions have already been taken by this Government, which have allowed us to prioritise the opening of schools. And I should just say to the Member—she referred to children missing out on education because of a local lockdown. Well, obviously, we have our first local lockdown at the moment in Wales, in Caerphilly, and schools and colleges remain open. And we've been very clear that our expectation is that, in Caerphilly, schools and colleges should remain open, and those travelling in and out of Caerphilly because they are teachers and they work in those establishments—that is a reasonable excuse for travel. And even though the problems with Caerphilly, and cases in that community being very high—over 70 per cent of children in Caerphilly attended school yesterday. It's one of the lower figures in Wales at the moment, but given that they're subject to a lockdown, it's good to see that that continues to be the case.
With regard to the curriculum, let's be absolutely clear on what the new normal is like. Suzy Davies is right—schools look and feel somewhat different. But it is important, having liaised with the teaching profession, that we do have some flexibility for this first month of operations, to give them an opportunity to test their procedures, to check out how things are working, and, crucially, to allow them to have the extra time that they may need to attend to children's well-being, and to understand where they are in their learning. And actually, for some aspects of the curriculum, there are public health reasons why we would not want them carrying out some activities. We continue to have concerns about some music activities within schools, especially in a group circumstance; issues around field trips that require an overnight stay—we are not recommending those at the moment, where those would be a normal part of the school day. So, there are some constraints. But if you talk to most schools, most schools are getting on with, as I said, identifying the learning needs, reflecting on the child's experience of lockdown, and making a plan going forward.
With regard to digital exclusion, I would remind the Member that we handed out 10,848 MiFi devices before the summer holiday, and we also handed out almost 10,000 licences to local authorities for them to convert all pieces of kit and those have been distributed to children. We've had record amounts of login to Hwb, which is our digital learning platform. But the Member is absolutely right, Deputy Presiding Officer: there was too much variation in the ability of schools to deliver distance learning. We have learnt the lessons; we are learning the lessons of what worked well, what were the barriers to that.
And as I speak, even though some of the local authorities don't particularly like it, Estyn is visiting every single local authority to assure themselves that the local authority is working with schools to ensure that they do have robust plans that allow them to flex their provision, should individual classes or individual schools be affected by the virus. And as I said, the inspectors are out there at this moment, and they will be reporting back to me. We've asked them to do that. We think it's really important to be able to have that level of assurance.
With regard to synchronous and asynchronous learning, we've published advice back in April about how schools can do that safely and effectively. With regard to temperature checks, at this point, the CMO is not advising that temperatures are checked in schools, although some schools are doing that. Parents who suspect their child has a temperature should not be sending their child to school. A high temperature is a symptom of coronavirus. If you suspect that your child has a high temperature, that child needs to get a test and should not be attending school. We will continue throughout this period to provide additional information and opportunities to discuss with headteachers and their representatives about how we can make sure that there is clarity about what a school needs to do if a child becomes unwell. But what we have seen so far is that, where that has happened, schools have taken immediate action to protect children and staff.
With regard to FE, well, obviously our colleges are also subject to the powers of inspection by Estyn, and we would expect Estyn to continue to work alongside our FE colleges to satisfy ourselves that the provision at those colleges is as good as it could be. As you know, FE is a strong part of our education system in Wales that delivers, year on year, excellent results, and colleges have been working very hard with Government to ensure that their learners can return safely.
With regard to catch-up money, £29 million has been made available. Each local authority has been given an allocation for individual schools. There is also an amount of money that has been given to each regional partnership to be able to assist schools in making sure that that money is used in an evidence-way approach, so each school will have been given an allocation. That money is there, and I would expect that headteachers and the LEAs would be planning this term, on the basis of these first few weeks back in school, about how that money can be used to best effect. I myself was in Hay-on-Wye primary school just last week, and Mrs B, the formidable headteacher of that primary school, already had a firm plan in place of how she was going to use her allocation.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you for the statement. I too would like to thank everyone who is seeking to ensure that our children and young people are able to return to education in a safe manner, which is a huge challenge, of course, particularly as we see positive COVID cases on the rise among our children and young people, with dozens of schools now having been affected already by the coronavirus crisis.
I have to say, I can't believe that you think that the test, trace and protect system is 'successful'. I think that's the word you used. That's the least appropriate description of it in my view, given the situation developing with testing in our schools. There is a grave weakness with that part of the strategy, which is that first step: the testing. And implementing that part of the strategy is very weak at the moment. Now, I do know that theCOVID testing is an issue for the health Minister, but there is a responsibility on you as education Minister when the lack of testing and the delays in getting tests does mean that far too many pupils are absent from our schools unnecessarily and are therefore missing out on their education once again. Unfortunately, my inbox is full of e-mails from parents from all parts of Wales—not just Arfon, but all corners of Wales—who tell me that their school had sent their child home because they were symptomatic, which, of course, is the right thing to do, as you've just mentioned, but then that the school expects that child to have a test before returning to school but the parents simply cannot access a test either through the mail or in a drive-through centre.
So, I would like to know what discussions you are having on behalf of our children and young people who don't want to miss out on more of their education on this utterly unacceptable situation with testing and why can't the Welsh Government education department develop a specific mechanism for parents, pupils and staff in schools so that schools can easily access testing. What about creating one point of contact for schools to deal with testing so that they can access them far more swiftly than they can at the moment? We must resolve this and I would like to hear what you've been doing about this particular situation.
Another issue that is a cause of concern for pupils and parents is the situation with face coverings on school buses. Now, I think there's a lack of clarity, and therefore I would like to know who exactly is responsible for enforcement in terms of the wearing of face coverings on school buses. Again, my inbox is full of messages from people who are concerned about seeing problems arising on that journey to school on the bus. You've provided more funding for school transport, but that alone isn't going to improve the situation where there isn't clear guidance in place and clarity for both pupils and parents on the enforcement of this aspect of face coverings.
And to conclude, the major question on examinations remains and what will happen next summer. The increase in cases and the unacceptable situation with testing does mean that the education of some of our pupils is already being affected and we've only just got back, so why don't you announce that examinations won't be held next year and that you will focus rather on creating a robust system of using assessments that doesn't include having to be physically at school to take an exam? There's no mention of that in your statement and an early announcement on that issue would be very much appreciated.

Kirsty Williams AC: Could I make it absolutely clear that the information that I have to date regarding COVID-positive cases in school at this stage relates to the infection being acquired outside of the school premises? I think that's really important to state. Where we've had children testing positive for COVID, that is usually part of a family grouping and, where we have had adults testing positive for COVID at this stage, the data I have would suggest that, again, the virus has been acquired outside of school. And that's why it is really, really important—if we are to do what we all want to do in this Chamber, to keep our schools open, then all of us have a responsibility to do what we can to keep community transmission rates of the virus really low. Where we're seeing the biggest disruption to education at the moment, it mirrors where we're seeing the virus in the community, in Caerphilly, in Rhondda Cynon Taf, in Newport—not exclusively, of course, because there are schools in other parts of Wales that are affected, but we have to keep transmission rates down and it's really important.

Kirsty Williams AC: I've had reports, for instance, of parents gathering closely together without socially distancing at the school gate. That's a simple thing we can avoid doing—that we can avoid doing. It is particularly important that staff in our schools remember to socially distance themselves from other members of staff. We have an incident where the senior management of a school is currently self-isolating because of a COVID case and because that staff group had been meeting together in the staff room and had not done that in a socially distanced way—hence the other members of staff having to go home to isolate. So, it's really important that we remember these messages.
With regard to testing, issues around lighthouse lab capacity again have been well rehearsed here in the Chamber today, and the health Minister will speak next, but I can assure you, Siân, that I have more than daily conversations with the health Minister about the need to ensure that TTP is as good as it needs to be to allow for the smooth running of education, and the Welsh Government is taking steps to do just that, to ensure that capacity above and beyond that at the lighthouse labs is made available, focusing in particular on those communities where we know infection in the community is a challenge at the moment, and there are further plans to increase local walk-in facilities, which will be important as the autumn continues.
Can I say that testing kits have been distributed to all schools and colleges, which can be used in an emergency if there is really, truly, no other way for a child to be able to access a test? So, schools will have 10 kits delivered to them, and, as I said, they are there in absolutely emergency situations. Kits have also been supplied to further education colleges. But I recognise—and that's why the Government is working as hard as it can to make sure that tests are available in a timely fashion, because that does allow us to minimise disruption.
With regard to face coverings, the guidance is absolutely clear with regard to face coverings. Our expectations of schools and our operational guidance are that they will take steps within their school to limit contact between groups of students. And schools are doing this in a variety of ways: zoning, for instance; one-way systems; staggered starts; staggered break times, lunch times and end-of-school-day arrangements. Where, after all those other things have been done—because those things have to be done first—where those things have all been done and then it is impossible to keep bubbles of students apart in communal areas, that's when face coverings should be worn. And it is best that that is done on an individual risk-assessment basis within an individual school, because our schools come in all different shapes and sizes. There are high schools in my own constituency that would look like a small primary school in the context of Cardiff. We have some of our schools in wonderful twenty-first century schools buildings, and then some of our schools are still, if I'm honest, Victorian structures, so your ability to achieve these things within your school will vary from school to school. If you cannot keep groups of students in communal areas 2m apart, then they should wear a face covering, and I'm sure that figuring that out is well within the capability of our headteachers who run our schools. They are dealing with much more complex problems every single day of their lives than figuring out whether they can keep children 2m apart in a corridor.
With regard to buses and home-to-school transport, 17 of our 22 local authorities have already mandated or strongly recommended that face coverings be used on home-to-school transport. And again, the advice, Deputy Presiding Officer, is clear: if capacity on that bus precludes you from keeping children apart—and, let's be honest, that's the case on most buses—then, again, a face covering is appropriate. And, as to who is responsible for that, then parents and carers and children themselves have to have those conversations about what they can do to ensure that they are minimising the chances of disruption of their education by wearing a face covering. And I believe we are the only part of the United Kingdom where the Government has made financial resources available to allow local authorities to purchase, and schools to purchase, masksfor their students, so that no child will be in a situation where they don't have the appropriate face covering if that's necessary. And, again, as I said, I think we're the only part of the United Kingdom to make that possible.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much for your statement and the comments you've made to other Members.
I agree with you that emotional well-being has to be the top priority, because a child that is distressed is not going to be learning effectively. So, that absolutely has to be the top priority. And it is wonderful to hear the sounds in the playground of children playing, because we know, then, that they are back enjoying life.
I think that, just picking up on some of the comments you made about the use of masks when it's not possible to separate young people, and, obviously, that includes when they're getting on these buses to go back to wherever, it simply isn't possible to have school buses by year groups—that's just not going to happen; we haven't got that sort of level of buses. But I think—when parents express concern about this, I wondered if we could encourage them to think beyond that and think, 'Could my child not be bicycling to school, or walking?', depending on how far away they've got to travel. Because that transition in people's—parents'—heads has not yet been made, in my experience.
I want to pay tribute to the two schools where there were very limited outbreaks of coronavirus at the very beginning of term. Clearly, it must have been contracted in the community; they hadn't been in school long enough to have contracted it in school. So, I'm absolutely reinforcing the messages you say about how we all need to keep the whole community from spreading the disease so that we can keep our schools open.
However, I want to come back on this digital exclusion point, because you weren't in the Chamber when I had a dialogue with the Deputy Minister on the number of Gypsy and Traveller sites that are digitally connected, and she said half of them had some connection. Well, I know what that means from personal experience—1 Mbps won't get you any learning remotely, unfortunately. And I'm concerned about all the other sites where there clearly is no digital learning. So, it doesn't matter how many iPads and laptops we hand out, those children will not be able to access the curriculum unless we are providing the broadband to enable those things to function. So, I wondered if you could talk to the Minister for local government about how we can get local authorities to make this a top priority. Because the money is available for making these connections, but local authorities have simply not taken it up over the summer when there was this opportunity to do so. So, this seems to me a top priority, and thank you for all the work you're doing.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much. You're absolutely correct: well-being is key. Learning cannot stick in a child who is distressed, and what we know is that the period of lockdown will have had an impact on all of our children, but that impact will be as various as our children are. Lockdown will have been a very unhappy period for some of our children, and that will need to be addressed. We know that for some of our learners, actually—and there have been some recent surveys that have said that teenagers actually have been less stressed being outside of school, so that reintegration into school has to be managed appropriately. And, if nothing else, it reinforces the importance of the whole-school approach, doesn't it, about making school a happy place to be for all of our learners. And that's why we do need to take this time at the beginning of term to give schools space to be able to address that, so that the rest of the academic year can go as well as it possibly can. And that's why we've made additional resources available, between myself and the health Minister, to have additional counselling sessions for those children where counselling is appropriate, and children in primary school, where traditional counselling is not an appropriate method for intervening with children, but family work and group work, which is much more appropriate, is made available.
Deputy Presiding Officer, the Member is right: in our guidance, we say very clearly that active travel should be the first option for parents where it is practical to do so, if for no other reason than that is a perfect start to the day for a child—burning off a little bit of that excess energy, getting some fresh air and getting some exercise before the start of the school day. We will continue to work with colleagues in the transport department to get those messages across and to make sure that schools are well equipped for that. Across the way here, in Ysgol Hamadryad, we have our first active travel school, where cars are simply not allowed to travel to school. So, in certain circumstances, in certain communities, it can be done successfully and we need to keep working on creating the conditions—not just for now, but for the future—to encourage active travel.
With regard to digital exclusion, I will indeed raise the point with the Minister for local government about permanent connections to Gypsy and Traveller sites. But, as I said in answer to Suzy Davies, not only did we give out laptops and devices to children, we also actually distributed 10,848 MiFi devices. Sometimes, it's not just the lack of a device that's the problem; it's the connectivity. You may be in a Gypsy-Traveller site, or you may be in the countryside, where that connection is not available. Hence, we were able to assist, as I said, almost 11,000 children by providing them with connectivity during this time.

Mark Isherwood AC: How do you respond to concerns raised with me by school staff that social distancing is being ignored or is impossible for pupils whose school requires them to move between classrooms; that the breadth and standard of online teaching has been variable, asking whether Wales has invested in further development of online teaching and resources in preparation for a possible second wave; that a primary sector teacher was hauled over the coals for using up too much paper in her classroom during hand-washing sessions, and told to encourage pupils to air-dry their hands—we all know how dangerous that is; that in some authorities the teaching staff are having to clean their own classrooms, with cleaners only coming in to provide one weekly deep clean, creating additional health risks and increasing their stress levels; and that Kirsty Williams says that the headteacher is best placed to advise, but they are not medical practitioners or scientists, and even they have got it wrong, and that we need robust, enforceable all-Wales advice?

Kirsty Williams AC: First of all, with regard to digital learning,as I have said in answer to both Jenny Rathbone and Suzy Davies, we've invested heavily in ensuring that digitally excluded learners have devices and MiFi connections. Those devices that have been given out to children will be replaced with new devices in those schools that have given devices to children as part of our EdTech scheme.
With regard to what further investment, Wales is the only part of the United Kingdom that has a deal with Microsoft. So, every child and every teacher has access to a full suite of Microsoft for education tools—Office and all those things that a school and a child would need to engage in online learning. Our digital platform, Hwb, has been an absolute godsend during this period. During the lockdown, we were also able to make Adobe Spark software available to every single child and teacher. Again, these are unique resources that are simply not available on this scale, free of charge, anywhere else in the United Kingdom.
With regard to cleaning, operational guidance is very clear about cleaning. Ahead of the summer term, out of the education budget, we made over £1 million available, up front, for local authorities to buy additional cleaning material. My colleague the Minister for local government has made available, I believe it is £29 million, which local authorities can draw down for the additional costs of cleaning in their schools. That is a substantial sum of money that has been agreed with the Welsh Local Government Association, so there is no reason why cleaning should be being skimped on. The financial resources have been made available prior to September, and are available to local authorities as we move forward.
With regard to enforcement, HSE, the Health and Safety Executive—much to the annoyance, actually, of some unions—has been ringing schools during the first week back and last week back, checking that the schools are abiding by the legislation that we have put in place for safe workplaces. Because not only are they places of education, they are workplaces, and they need to comply with the legislation that has been put in place. The HSE has been actively involved in telephoning schools to double-check that they are taking all the necessary steps.
With regard to moving children around schools, many schools are choosing to limit movements around schools, Mark. So, for instance, children staying in a particular classroom for the majority of their day, including in secondary school, and only moving when they need to move to a lab to do, perhaps, lab work. Or, the preference many schools are using is actually moving staff around the schools. And if that teacher is saying that those provisions haven't been put in place in their school then that conversation needs to be had with the headteacher, doesn't it, about how that school is organising itself? Because in the schools that I have visited, and the discussions I've had with headteachers, they're looking at zones and they're looking at minimising the amount of movement around a school that the pupils are doing, choosing, where at all possible, to move staff instead.

Lynne Neagle AC: Can I thank you for your statement, Minister, and also place on record my thanks to not just the school staff, but also staff in LEAs who've worked really hard to get the children back to school? It is really wonderful to have them back there.
I welcome your assurance on the issue of testing that you're having very regular discussions with the health Minister. As you'll be aware, there have been some concerns locally about the ability to get tests for children and young people via the UK Government's lighthouse labs, so I would be grateful if you could give me your assurances that you will continue to discuss that with the health Minister and that both of you will continue to impress upon the UK Government how vital it is that the testing system is in place to respond quickly on these issues.
I was pleased to see the emphasis in your statement and in the reopening guidance on well-being, and obviously I heard your answer to Jenny Rathbone. I'd like to ask you, though, how you are ensuring that all schools are actually embracing the need to prioritise well-being, and also how you're ensuring that the money, and this is a significant sum of money that's been allocated, is being spent in an appropriate way to support children and young people, particularly in relation to the concerns you've highlighted, which you know the committee shares, about the need for appropriate interventions for particularly younger children.
And just finally, I'd like to say that one of the committee's major concerns during the lockdown was the impact on hidden children and children who were maybe suffering abuse and neglect at home but that weren't known to services. I welcome the recent Welsh Government leaflet—

Can you wind up, please?

Lynne Neagle AC: —that's been produced with Childline, which is very helpful: you have the right to remain safe. Can I ask you what you're doing to ensure that all children and young people in Wales have access to that very useful leaflet? Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Can I thank Lynne Neagle for her comments and her recognition of the role of local education authorities during this time, who have, as you said, been working tirelessly alongside their headteachers to be able to put provision in place that has led to the opening of all our schools for the start of this academic year? It's been a massive challenge and they have risen to it well. I'm very grateful for the support of those in the WLGA who specialise in education. I meet on a regular basis, weekly—I think almost weekly through the summer as well—with them so that we can understand the challenges that they're facing on the ground turning our operational guidance as a Government into reality.
As I said, undoubtedly, there are challenges with testing capacity at this moment. I discuss it often with my colleague the health Minister. I discussed it yesterday with Gavin Williamson, the Minister in Westminster, who has similar challenges in making sure that testing capacity is meeting the demands that are being placed upon it at the moment. We have a collective endeavour to make sure that action is taken at lighthouse labs, but those are not the only facilities that we're relying on. We are working hard to create additional local testing centres as well as the other facilities that have already been announced by my colleague the health Minister.
With regard to well-being, myself and the Minister for children, Julie Morgan, continue to work together to ensure that local authorities are responding in a holistic approach across education and children's services to meet the needs of children. Again, we have to anticipate a rise in referrals at this time, as children come back into school and begin to have those conversations with trusted adults about what the period of lockdown has been for them. And, like you, I think for most teaching professionals, those children who are on the cusp—you know, so they're not formally known to social services; those children have been contacted throughout this period—but for those children where life, sometimes, at home can be a challenge, those are the children who have been a particular focus and of concern to teachers. And we are working with LEAs to make sure that education has the ability to make referrals as necessary and get the necessary support in for children and families at this time if that becomes evident that it is needed.
And you're right: for younger children, the focus must be on family therapy and group sessions rather than the traditional counselling model. The counselling model allows you to be able to take control of your own life and make decisions and take actions. Well, the ability of a six-year-old to be able to do that in these circumstances is limited if it exists at all, and therefore different types of therapy. We will be monitoring how individual health boards and local authorities are using the resources that have been made available to them. And I will discuss with colleagues about how we can get the information that the Member referred to more widely available to all children so that they are aware of the support that is available to them.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. I also want to take this opportunity to welcome your comments and your opening remarks that you want to keep our schools open during these uncertain times.
It was a little concerning this week when I heard that a number of children were sent home with runny noses this week, and obviously, because of the delay in testing, that meant that they missed out on three days of education, roughly. None of us want to see them missing out on any more education, I'm sure, so I welcome your comments that you said that you're going to work with the health Minister to ensure that testing is speeded up. But also, I'm just wondering what guidance we could maybe further issue to our schools to differentiate between COVID symptoms and the common cold—a sniffly cough—and maybe, as was suggested earlier in the Chamber, it is a good idea to look into all schools temperature testing before sending a child home, so at least they do have one of the COVID symptoms. Because we don't—I'm sure that we all, Minister—don't want to see any of our children missing out unnecessarily on education. Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Laura Anne makes a very relevant point. At this time of year, at the start of an academic year, as a mum Laura, you well know the absolute inevitability of the cold; it is a truth like death and taxes that you will get that cold. But because of the heightened awareness, quite understandably, people are very, very anxious and it is understandable why, then, perhaps a member of staff may say, 'No, this child has to go home.'
I would refer you to a video that we have been circulating that has been done by Dr Heather Payne, who is the chief adviser on child health to the Government, explaining just this, about when it's appropriate for a child to be tested and that the symptoms of a common cold are different. We're looking to work across education and health to do extra webinars for teachers and headteachers, where they can hear directly from health professionals to give them the extra confidence that they need in helping them make these decisions, and that is being arranged as we speak. We're trying to get those messages out.
But, clearly, access to testing does need to improve to be able to minimise disruption where a child could have one of the nasties that you have at this time of year, but it is not COVID and therefore, if they were well enough in themselves, they could be in school. But that's one of the wicked problems that we face returning to school at this particular juncture in the year; it's one of the challenges we're going to have to overcome. Thank you.

And finally, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Minister, we all want the best for our schoolchildren. Rhondda Cynon Taf, over the last 10 years, will have invested somewhere in the region of £0.75 billion under the twenty-first century schools programme renewing those schools. And in those schools, of course, we want the best teachers, so I very much welcome the proposal by Welsh Government to employ a further 600 teachers. But one of the issues that has arisen, of course, is that we have quite a number of highly qualified teachers living in Wales who have qualified abroad but face obstacles in overcoming the restrictions on the recognition of their qualifications. I have one particular constituent—I know I've written to you about that, and I'm very grateful for the way in which you've looked at that particular issue—a highly qualified teacher from the United States who has been trying to overcome those hurdles. Bearing in mind the demand we have now for teachers and the challenges that we face from COVID, is there anything that you could do as education Minister to perhaps look at those restrictions, to overcome those restrictions, to ensure that we maximise the use of the wealth of talent that exists amongst the citizens who have made their lives in Wales and who could contribute so much to our education system?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Mick. Firstly, on the twenty-first century schools programme, can I assure Members that work onsite continues, and has continued, as soon as regulations allowed that to happen? And despite the considerable strain on Welsh Government budgets, I'm delighted that the capital available to me to continue to support band B of that programme is unchanged. Even during lockdown, we've been able to make announcements on some really significant new buildings. That's really important, of course, for the future of education, but it's also really important to our economic recovery, making sure that this Government is spending Welsh money to provide fantastic facilities, but also work for people here in Wales.
Can I assure the Member that work is under way at the moment to give powers to the Education Workforce Council to be able to make decisions regarding the applicability and the relevance of teaching qualifications from areas of the world that presently do not automatically give you the right to work as a teacher here? We guard entry into our profession in Wales, quite rightly so, very, very highly. We want the very best people standing in front of our classrooms. No education system can exceed the quality of the people who work with our children day in and day out. But we are in the process of giving extra powers to the Education Workforce Council that will allow an individual with a teaching qualification from a country outside, traditionally, the UK or the European Union to have that qualification scrutinised by the Education Workforce Council, with a view to putting them on the list as a qualified teacher able to work within Wales. That work is under way right at this moment. So, it shouldn't be too much longer, Mick. Not too much longer.

Thank you, Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Winter Protection Plan

Item 4 on the agenda is a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services on the winter protection plan. I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services—Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Members will be aware that I announced our intention to develop a winter protection plan for Wales over the summer. I'm pleased to confirm we have now published that plan, following our work with stakeholders.The events from the last week have reinforced why this is needed. Despite all of the good progress made over the summer, the position remains precarious. The COVID-19 pandemic is not over, and as we have been reminded again, the virus can spread quickly with significant local outbreaks.
We all know that winter is always a challenging time of year for our health and social service staff. Let me be clear: the challenges this winter will be truly extraordinary. In addition to the normal winter pressures, we will need to respond to the unfinished COVID pandemic. The resurgence of the virus in recent weeks will not be the end of our challenges. The next days and weeks will determine whether we need to introduce even more significant measures to control the virus. So, we must be prepared for the worst. The winter protection plan is intended to bring together the main health and social care contributions that protect the public, help support delivery and engagement with our key partners and stakeholders, and we will work together to keep Wales safe.
We have heard from community health councils about the things that will matter most to individuals and communities. Engagement with professional groups and partners across health and social care has been helpful to ensure that the context for the winter protection plan is clear. Our NHS and care expectations will be more specifically set out in the NHS operational framework for quarters 3 and 4, which will be issued next week. The winter protection plan will be supported by the £800 million NHS stabilisation package that we recently announced, together with the additional funding being provided to local authorities and the care sector.
The plan highlights a number of now familiar areas, but ones that are crucial to controlling the virus, keeping communities safe and well and to reduce demand on our NHS and care services. For example, a key element of the local prevention and response plans is the test, trace and protect service. This provides a key defence against widespread transmission that relies heavily on public co-operation, honesty and compliance with that advice. The plan identifies the need for the public to support an expanded and comprehensive flu vaccination campaign this autumn. This should help to reduce the seasonal demands that flu places on our NHS. There is no easy way to tackle COVID-19, it requires everyone to play their part in supporting this national effort.
Scientific evidence informs our decisions and will continue to do so. I recognise it has been very difficult and challenging for us as individuals and communities. Working together as a nation has made a huge difference, with people and organisations across Wales playing their part in helping to limit the impact of the virus. The reduction over the summer made some people relax and become complacent about the continuing threat. There has also been a minority of people that have deliberately not followed the rules and may have thought that COVID-19 had gone away. It has not and cases are rising.
Despite the huge efforts of the majority of people, some areas are experiencing much higher numbers of cases that are likely to result in vulnerable people being admitted to hospital in the coming weeks. So, let me be absolutely clear: if we are to avoid further local or national lockdowns, our behaviour must change and change quickly. We are in a similar position now to early February this year—a matter of weeks ahead of the national lockdown choice made in March by each UK nation.
We have seen significant rises in cases in the Caerphilly borough area, Merthyr Tydfil, the Rhondda and in Newport. Members will know that local actions have had to be taken and are under constant review. Limiting people's movements and placing restrictions on daily life is never something the Welsh Government has taken lightly. However, we will make those difficult decisions to help to save lives and reduce the risks to our most vulnerable people.
The significance of the rise in cases in the last week means we have a very narrow window of opportunity in which to act and avoid more radical intervention. None of us want to see more restrictions, but I cannot stress enough that if we do not start to see a reduction in cases, and that can only come through changes in our behaviour, then lives will be lost. I do not want to see a national lockdown, but if the choice is that or more harm, including deaths, then we will do what is necessary to keep Wales safe.
Health and social care staff, together with other key workers and colleagues in the third sector, work tirelessly to provide services and care for us and our loved ones. We in turn must all do our bit to fight the virus and help keep Wales safe, whether that is adhering to the rules, maintaining social distancing or practising good hand hygiene. We will continue to live with the virus in many aspects of our daily lives for some time to come. We must remain vigilant for ourselves, our families and communities.
The winter protection plan is not a panacea, and it will take time for us all to recover from this pandemic. However, the plan demonstrates our continued commitment to the people of Wales throughout this exceptional public health emergency. We all have our part to play to do the right thing. We can all make choices to help keep Wales safe.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, thank you for your statement this afternoon. Can I put on record my sincere thanks to all the staff that make up the health and social care family in Wales for what they've done so far since the COVID outbreak was officially declared in March, and, indeed, to you as Minister, and the Government as well? Because I'm sure the pressure on all of you as individuals has been as great a challenge as anything you've faced in your political if not in your entire lives. But I would like to ask a series of questions about the plan that you have tabled before the Assembly today.
It's important that such plans do maintain confidence, and confidence is a critical component, not just from the staff who will be delivering this plan, but obviously the public who have to buy into it. Yesterday, we had the breach from Public Health Wales around the testing and the data that was put up on public display. This afternoon we've heard from the First Minister that he didn't know anything about that breach of data until 2 o'clock yesterday afternoon, when Public Health Wales put that up on display. I'm led to believe that Welsh Government were informed on 2 September of this data breach, and you as Minister were informed on 3 September. Can you inform the Assembly today of the timeline when this information was made available to you, and why did you retain that information rather than share it with other colleagues in Government? Or is it the case that you did share it with other colleagues in Government, but not the First Minister? I think it is really important that we understand how Government is working when such anomalies—and it is an anomaly, I accept, the data breach, but it's a serious anomaly of 18,000 names appearing on a public website, and it's vital that we keep confidence.
Secondly, could you highlight how this plan will start to address the issue of tackling the waiting lists that have built up through the summer months? Because it is critically important that we do make progress in that particular area. I agree entirely with you when you say about the issue of it being a real troubling time when you've got COVID and waiting times and normal winter pressures, but it's important that the public can have confidence that some of these waiting times will be eaten into.
Thirdly, on the flu vaccine programme, can you identify that there are enough doses available to meet the requirements of the flu vaccine programme that you've put before us? Because a new cohort of individuals has been brought into the scheme, and as I understand it, there are still negotiations pending with the pharmaceutical companies to secure enough dosage to make sure that there's enough flu vaccine available in the country.
Fourthly, it is vital that we understand the support that the staff require, both in social and in health settings. Are you confident that this plan that you've put before us today to meet winter pressures will meet the needs of staff both in social care and healthcare settings, so that ultimately they can feel supported, whether it be in PPE or making sure that they can make the decisions that they require to meet the circumstances that face them in their own localities?
Finally, could you highlight to me in particular—because it's a concern that I've had raised with me around dental services—how this plan will address the chronic problems that the dental service in this country is facing at the moment, getting back to as near normal as possible, albeit the new normal that we face with the COVID regulations?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for that series of questions, which I'll try to address as quickly as time allows.
You're correct; my understanding is that officials were informed on 2 September, and I was informed with a serious incident alert on 3 September. That's entirely normal. Public Health Wales had already informed the Information Commissioner, as they should do, of the breach. They had identified what had happened, and as I say, we don't believe that anyone has come to harm, but it is a serious breach and it needs to be treated seriously. That's why there is an independent investigation. That investigation will be taken through the board accountability and governance processes, so you can expect there to be a published report into that investigation once it's been received. And as you know, the chief executive of Public Health Wales issued a proactive press release and gave a series of interviews yesterday setting out what had happened, and indeed apologising for the serious breach. There is no attempt to cover over the fact that this was a serious breach that took place, and it was reported as a serious incident, as indeed all serious incidents are between the health service and the Government.
In terms of addressing waiting lists, I'm afraid I don't share the Member's optimism about the ability to significantly eat into waiting lists over the winter period. It's a reality in every nation of the UK that the significant increase in activity that has built up during the first period of lockdown, where we both ended NHS services—. You'll recall that on 13 March I was the first UK health Minister to make the decision to pause most forms of elective activity. We've seen a significant build-up as a result of that, and then, even as services have restarted, there's been some reluctance from members of the public to access services that are now available. In common with every other Minister in every one of the four nations, I'd say that most of the next term, a full Senedd term, will be likely to be needed to catch up with the activity we're seeing, partly because of the activity that's built up, but also because we're not able to see people in the numbers we'd otherwise do. That's about the need to screen people, between COVID secure and those where they are suspected or COVID-positive. It's also the reality that our staff can't undertake as many procedures with the additional PPE requirements. So, it isn't realistic for us to expect there to be a significant eating into waiting lists through this period of time. It will need prioritisation for people with the greatest need, and that means that it's going to be difficult because some people will need to wait longer. But, as I said, that is not a situation unique to Wales. You may have seen the commentary from the King's Fund and others about the scale of challenge that we're going to face right across our national health service, and we'll talk more and more about the reasons for that, including our staff. And I was pleased to hear you mention our staff, because our staff haven't really had a break, across our health and social care system, since the start of the pandemic, and that gives me great concern about not just the potential for a second wave, but the longer term future.
We have introduced more support—occupational health support, health and well-being support—and I have had very regular conversations with representatives from employers and trade unions. There's been even more conversation between those parts of the workplace relationship than even we would have had in normal times. That's because what our staff have had to do will have an impact on them, for more support, practically, to keep them in the workplace, but we also know that there is an effect that takes some time to manifest itself when people have been through particularly difficult or traumatic events. So, through the next term, we'll need to deal with the reality that staff in health and social care will need more support, and some staff will need to come out of the workplace to recover and some staff may leave prematurely.
So, actually we have had a really big challenge building up with more activity that we can't undertake now and we'll face a challenge in our staff. But I can say, though, on the positive side: you mentioned challenges around PPE to support staff; we're in a much better position than at the start of the pandemic, where we found that we had stores that we had in use, and once we'd used the pandemic stores, our normal plans would have been to have contracts in place, but other countries then didn't honour them because they had their own challenges and, as we've rehearsed many times, the world market in PPE tightened significantly. We've rebuilt and stocked up our stores, we've been very successful within the family of UK nations in doing so, and we've helped other UK nations through mutual aid with PPE requirements. We've also managed to continue to supply PPE to our social care sector as well. So, we have a much better situation on stock than the position that I faced when going through the pandemic in April and May of this year.
On the flu vaccine, the UK Government procure for all four nations. That's an agreed process. So, we're optimistic that we'll have more flu vaccine in place for every UK nation, including, of course, Wales. We're looking to prioritise the most vulnerable. There's a section in the winter protection plan on what we're looking to do to both have a higher rate of uptake in our most vulnerable populations and if we still have enough vaccine to then go out and have people over the age of 50 receiving the flu vaccine as well, as well as our in-any-event plan to have more pre-school and primary school-age children undertaking and receiving the vaccine as well.
On dentistry, we expect more data to be provided in the NHS operational framework that I mentioned. This has been a real challenge because, of course, dentistry is a high-risk profession—it's pretty impossible to undertake socially distanced dentistry work, there's the proximity you often need to be able to do the work and, indeed, the aerosol-generating procedures. We can expect there to be more detail through the operational framework and the advice from our chief dental officer.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for the statement, Minister. I'll begin with that assertion of yours that we're in a position very similar to that which we were in in February. I know why you're saying it, because this is the same virus, it's as potentially dangerous as it was back then and I fully concur with your view that it's up to all of us to face our own responsibilities in terms of adhering to guidance and so on, but we should be, of course, in a much, much better place than we were in February. We have track and trace, we know a bit more about treatments—a lot more about treatments—we do have, finally, now, the wearing of face coverings, keeping people safe, and so on. What we need to know now, going into the winter, is that lessons have been learned and some of, perhaps, the bad decisions made early on—understandable, given that this was new, if not entirely forgivable, but understandable—we need to make sure that they aren't happening again. And whilst you spent a lot of that statement saying how important it is that people take their own responsibilities, it's about what the Government can do and, on testing and tracing, it's not people who are flouting rules who are finding it difficult to get tests in my constituency and throughout Wales at the moment—it's people who can't get tests because they aren't available now. Can you explain to us what will be done ahead of this winter to make sure that the over-reliance that you decided to put on the lighthouse labs won't become a problem in coming weeks and months? This is something that independent SAGE warned against; I'm concerned about it too. We're looking for assurances from you.
I wrote to you about the problems in getting tests last week. I also in that letter asked: please, can we move towards the asymptomatic testing of domiciliary carers and community nurses, and others who have to visit people's homes? Because there are fears that those tests that have been made available in residential homes still aren't there for people who need them just as much because of the vulnerability of people that they come across. Please can you assure us that that is something that you will look at introducing as we approach the winter, or do so immediately?
I'm concerned that there's no mention, whilst you look at the flu, of other chronic health conditions. In particular, I'm thinking of cancer. There's no reference to that in your statement. It's vital that you keep the NHS running, of course, for other health conditions as much as possible, and I dread to think what the survival rates for cancer will be next year if we have a winter without screening or testing. So, it's about what Government can show us at the onset of winter that they have learned that actually makes now very different to February in terms of our potential to certainly get a better outcome than we did in those early days of the pandemic here in Wales.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for that series of questions I'll run through. I think it's important to recognise what I am saying about the comparison with February. Of course, we're in a better position in terms of our preparation and understanding, with the practical experience and learning from the last six months or so. That's not the point that I'm making; I think the Member knows that isn't the point that I'm making, but in terms of the position in February about the profile and the rise in cases, so without action where we could end up find ourselves. In terms of learning from where we were, I think it's fair to say that with the knowledge we have now and the same facts, we would act differently. So, that's why I'm saying it's really important that people take account of their own choices, because otherwise the Government may have different choices to make where we may need to make choices earlier than the time period in which we did in the first wave. And that is the learning that I think Members are urging us to take on board. The Government will meet its responsibilities, but I think it is really important that people don't forget their own personal responsibility as well. That's what saw us come out of lockdown through the summer and suppress the virus, and it's what's been the most significant factor in seeing a rise in case numbers as well.
It may be helpful if I re-set out what's happened with the lighthouse labs, the UK testing programme. You'll recall that most of the criticism at the early stage was that Wales didn't take part early enough in the lighthouse labs testing programme, and that was because we couldn't see and understand the data flowing through it. Scotland and Northern Ireland took part earlier; we waited until we could understand the data, and that's now regularly flowing through to our test, trace and protect teams. They've always been able to see data from the lighthouse labs and NHS Wales labs, and that's put us in a very good position for our highly successful contact tracing service.
The challenges we've seen are that the lighthouse labs process was working well until about three weeks ago, to be fair. We've all seen the well-advertised challenges, and that's really because not so much that they can't undertake the sampling, but they're unable to deliver the testing of those samples to get the results back to people, and that's the problem that we see. And Matt Hancock today has acknowledged in the House of Commons that it'll take a matter of weeks for that to be resolved. That was a discussion we had in meetings of health Ministers of all four nations on Friday. We then saw the challenges in the testing programme with reductions over the weekend. And again, to be fair to Matt Hancock, after myself and other health Ministers contacted him, there was an improvement over the weekend, and we then mobilised some of our own resources as well.
As well as us thinking about how we redeploy NHS Wales resources, which we are doing, and I'll have more to say over the next week or so on what we're doing, especially around mobile testing units, we also need the UK programme to get back on an even keel because it's a UK-funded and delivered programme of testing in each one of the four nations. There isn't an additional consequential of extra money or extra staff that are waiting to be found to come and deliver additional tests aside from this. And the successful return to the level of predictability and testing turnaround we saw through most of the summer would benefit all four nations. That is what we are looking to see happen.
When it comes to the use of NHS Wales resources, we built them up to be able to deal with extra pressures that we know we're going face through the autumn and the winter. So, it's a collaborative effort of the Welsh programme that we've taken Welsh Government resources to fund, and indeed the lighthouse programme as well, and seeing that come back to the levels of performance we saw up until about three weeks ago.
On the challenge about COVID tests in asymptomatic populations in domiciliary care and residential care, we've carried on with a regular testing programme now from the first weekly programme to every two weeks. Typically for staff in residential care, we've increased the frequency again in Caerphilly, and we're looking to do so again in RCT because of the challenges there about an increase in community transmission.
So, we are looking to deliver a regular programme, and, again, the challenges that you allude to in terms of that testing programme for our staff are again part of the lighthouse lab challenges that we're seeing, and that's again about the turnaround in those tests and, again, there's been a lot of commentary across the UK about that. We're again looking at whether we can use NHS Wales resources in areas of highest transmission and to try to—[Inaudible.]—faster and more predicable turnaround for a limited period of time.
On the domiciliary and residential care, they are again a priority—those staff—for the flu vaccination programme, because they are, by definition, working with groups of vulnerable people. And when it comes to non-COVID treatment and harm, it's one of the four harms we recognise in our national approach, and it's again set out very clearly in the winter protection plans. So, again, we've set out in the plan what we're doing to see that continue as much as possible throughout the period of the winter and, indeed, the message that myself and the NHS chief exec have given about the need to not just to restart those, but to see further plans for those in the quarter 3 and quarter 4 framework. Because I recognise that the harm that comes from a national lockdown—it's not just the economic harm, which almost always has a health consequence as well, but it's potentially the harm to those other forms of non-COVID treatment that may not go ahead and take place, either because we have to pause those, because we're seeing more people coming to hospitals with COVID, or, indeed, because the public, as they have done in the first wave, choose not to take part because they're more concerned about acquiring coronavirus.
So, there aren't simple and straightforward answers here. The plan we set out today talks about how we'll balance those priorities and, again, look to make and deliver further improvement. And you can expect to hear more from the Government over the winter about what we have and have not managed to do successfully in our unfinished fight with coronavirus.

Thank you. We are two thirds of the way through this time-wise, and I still have a number of speakers, so I'm going to have to ask for some brevity, both of questions and of answers. Mandy Jones.

Mandy Jones AC: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Minister, thank you for your statementtoday and the opportunity for me to contribute. The sense of dread after everything the health service and the public have been through this year, I send my best wishes and—[Inaudible.]—all of the challenges and dangers that brings, especially to those who are vulnerable. I've heard your winter protection plan and I'm very concerned that its main focus appears to be a look back at lockdown, a response to a second winter wave of COVID. As we head into the winter and the predictable number of illnesses and, sadly, deaths—many of these of the respiratory system—question 1: how will the public and the medical professionals differentiate between the usual winter-type illnesses and COVID-19, when the symptoms are very similar to each other?
Minister, we had an exchange in July when I referred to the effects of lockdown on non-COVID-related illnesses, and you mentioned the need to balance different harms like you've done again today. One of the biggest worries has to be suspected cancer. Minister—[Inaudible.]—modelling shows that, across the UK, there could be around 35,000 extra cancer deaths as a result of COVID-19. In Wales, between March and June, there were around 1,600 fewer urgent cancer referrals. There is clearly a huge backlog of patients, as you've mentioned, who will need diagnostic testing for suspected cancers who aren't in the system at all yet. When these patients do present, this will no doubt cause capacity constraint in diagnostic services, and we're all acutely aware that delays for patients could cause a late diagnosis of cancer, fewer treatment options and less chance of survival. I do see consideration of this in your plan, so can you tell the Chamber what the Welsh Government is doing to make sure diagnostic services are completely ready and what arrangements are being made for follow-on treatment and surgeries, all of this in the context of winter pressures? While we couldn't foresee the demands of the Welsh NHS of COVID-19 in the early days, the curve was flattened and, of course, you are keeping a close eye on the numbers of cases now and using the levers available to counter any rises in numbers. Surely, though, you must agree with me that the NHS in Wales cannot remain in a state of suspended animation, as it currently appears to be, and waiting lists for elective surgery need to get started again. Can you inform the Chamber how the lockdown has impaired waiting lists—sorry, has impacted waiting lists—and what your plan is for addressing this? A hip replacement or a cataract removal becomes an emergency when the former causes a fall and the latter causes blindness.
Finally, lockdown, job losses, working from home and a different reality to get used to has the potential to affect the nation's mental health, as we've previously said—what capacity has the Welsh NHS got to deal with this?
And in closing, Minister, can I tell you that, despite what you say about the NHS being open for business, there appears to be a real disjoint between what you say and what constituents are experiencing, where simple and necessary procedures are not taking place? Appointments are impossible to get. With the winter pressures coming, I fear that nothing will change anytime soon and I hope you'll—[Inaudible.]

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the series of questions. I think I largely addressed challenges about elective care and waiting lists in response to Andrew R.T. Davies's first set of questions, in acknowledging both that we have a significant challenge to address over a significant period of time, but the fact that the NHS has been progressively opening itself for more work; there is elective care taking place in every single health board. Our challenge is the fact that, in having COVID-secure arrangements for people who come in for elective care, that means we can't do as much activity as we would have done in the past, and, again, the need to prioritise. That goes for a wide range of services, not just cancer, but broader diagnostics. You'll see more detail in our operational framework, but, of course, on cancer, we have already seen the restart of a range of cancer screening programmes, so we are doing that work and we know there is ground to recover. I'm certainly not sanguine or unconcerned about the backlog in not just elective care but in other conditions where significant health harm can be caused, including, of course, some conditions that, left untreated, may prove fatal.
When it comes to the challenges about the flu season in particular, I think it's worth reflecting that an average flu season across the UK causes 8,000 to 10,000 deaths, so it's something that we get used to, but, actually, flu does take the lives of lots of people every single year: it reiterates why the flu vaccine programme is so important. In terms of people who may come to harm from flu, of course, they are potentially more vulnerable to COVID as well, so it reinforces the need to get yourself tested and protected against flu, take the jab, but also it's why some of the rapid point-of-care tests are really useful for us, because a range of those will be able to test people for strains of flu as well as COVID. So, there are a range of things in the plan that we've already published today as well as more detail to come in the statements I expect to continue to make to the Senedd through the winter and indeed in the operational framework I've referenced in my opening statement.

Thank you. Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you very much for the statement this afternoon, Minister. I think many of us will welcome a more localised approach to these matters. The local approach that's being taken in Caerphilly and a voluntary approach that's being taken elsewhere are ones where I think many of us will watch with a great deal of interest. It is important that the Government continues to be agile and is able to respond to some very different issues in different parts of the country.
But one area that I've seen, in the last few weeks, rise in salience has been that of testing. You've been asked repeatedly on it this afternoon, Minister, and the First Minister was earlier today as well, and I think that reflects the amount of concern that is felt on all sides of the Chamber and in all parts of the country at the moment. You will be aware that I've never felt that I have the confidence in the UK Government to do the right thing—to do the right thing for the people we represent, and to certainly do the right thing for Wales—and, over the last few weeks, we've seen the UK systems break down again. The UK systems have broken down week after week and month after month as this crisis has developed over the year, and I feel it is time, that we need, and that you need as a Welsh Government, to establish our own systems here in Wales, working with local government, working with the health board, working with Public Health Wales to ensure that we do have robust testing processes in place. We've seen the failure of contact tracing across the border in England and we've seen the impact that has had. We've seen in Wales how contact tracing—you made a statement on it last week, Minister—has been a great success, and I think it is one of the key ways in which we continue to deal with the coronavirus over the coming weeks and months that we get testing in the same place as where the wider contact-tracing strategy is, and that means a Welsh system, rooted in our communities, where people can walk in, have the test and get the results, because I'm not convinced that the UK systems are delivering for us.

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member, and, of course, we do set out some of the challenges he sets out at the start, in terms of taking local action in preference to national action, in our coronavirus control plan and, as the First Minister has reminded Members today, our test, trace, protect service works, effectively, as a smart lockdown. If people are honest and upfront about their contacts, we'll get to people quickly, because our contact tracing service isn't just highly effective in reaching contacts overall, but actually gets to people very quickly, in the information that we published in the last week. That allows people to follow that advice on self-isolation and avoid wider community measures, and I think that's really valuable and important for all of us.
The challenges on lighthouse lab testing are undeniably disappointing, and it's not just me saying that—every health Minister in the UK who will be asked questions about this will have the same issues to say and, as I say, Matt Hancock today in the House of Commons has acknowledged it will take a matter of weeks for those issues to be resolved. But it is in all of our interests for those issues to be resolved, because, until a few weeks ago, it was actually a pretty good performance of lighthouse labs, and that's not a point of criticism; that's what was happening. What we need to do, though, is to be able to see how we're going to be able to switch our resources in Wales to deal with the challenge we have for that next few weeks, because the challenge that the lighthouse labs are facing comes at a considerably difficult period of time. Schools have gone back, universities will have gone back within three weeks, and so we know we're likely to see more pressure on the system, and I recognise the deep frustration of not just the Members' constituents, but across the country, if they can't get ready access to a test in the way we were used to getting through the summer. So, rest assured, it isn't just the contact I've had on the Friday or the Saturday morning with other health Ministers; it's a regular feature of concern. That's why I wrote jointly, with the Scottish health Minister, to Matt Hancock yesterday, seeking to understand more about the challenges, so we can actually make sure we're deploying our own resources as we need to to provide the sort of testing system that all of us want to see for all of our communities.

Thank you. We have had one speaker from each of the parties, and can I just make a plea again? I have four speakers and it's entirely up to the three speakers ahead of the last person to actually just stick to the minute—including the Minister on his answers—and then the fourth person will be called and, if the fourth person can't be called, then I'm sorry; the fourth person had better take it up with those of you who were ahead of them. Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, thank you for your statement today, which I've read with great interest. One key part of ensuring our hospitals are able to cope with demand through normal winters, let alone this coming one, is the ability to discharge in-patients in a safe and timely manner to avoid bedblocking. I know that RCT council and Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board have worked closely with the Welsh Government's integrated care fund in past years to develop innovative community-based initiatives, which have assisted very many patients in achieving a safe and timely discharge from hospital, releasing those beds for those who need them most. So, I welcome the fact that, on 24 August, you announced a 12-month extension to the integrated care fund. It's clearly a central pillar of our response to winter pressures, so what work is Welsh Government doing to ensure that all local authorities and health boards are fully aware of the benefits of the integrated care fund and have the resources in place to exploit its potential fully this coming winter?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. I think it's a really important question, because delayed transfers of care cause real harm within our system. People that don't need to be in hospital almost always end up suffering harm. If you're immobile and in a bed, rather than being up and around, that's a challenge and a problem for that person. Many of the people we're talking about are vulnerable and, in particular, older people who are in hospital, and it's the wrong place for them to be. As well as the integrated care fund, which local authorities and regional partnership boards all lobbied for the continuation of, because they recognise the value it's provided, we have a twin challenge of making sure we don't just see the value from that, but we understand how that's spread to other authorities as well. And that deliberate shared learning is something that we can't lose sight of through the COVID pandemic. It also, of course, includes some of the work that we've funded with the transformation fund that accompanied 'A Healthier Wales'. The Member will recall that, in Ynysybwl, when we launched that, we took account of the work that the health board had done successfully with the council on getting people into their own homes, supporting them there—that was a benefit for those individuals and a benefit for the health service and the council in getting to the right place to receive their ongoing care and treatment. So, I'm very happy to continue making the case for work between health and local government; it benefits the citizen and it benefits the whole service.

Mick Antoniw AC: Minister, firstly to say thank you very much for the work that you and the leader of RCT council did recently when we were failed by the UK Government in respect of the testing capacity. I don't think people will realise that, as I understand it, you both ended up almost virtually working around the clock, through the night, in order to try and alleviate and increase that capacity, and I think that is very much appreciated by those who were then able to get tested. Can I just ask about, though, elective surgery, hips and knees? Because these things do affect people's lives very, very considerably, and I think we all understand the impact that COVID has had on the capacity within our health assets, and I'm just wondering to what extent we can actually get information out to people, explain to them what the situation is, and give some indication of what is happening, with a view to, I suppose, a timetable of trying to restore and increase the amount of elective surgery that can actually take place. People are reasonable, people do understand, and sometimes it is the most reasonable people who are the ones who suffer silently, and I think we have an obligation to at least, I think, be as transparent as possible with them with the challenges we face.

Vaughan Gething AC: It's a completely fair point the Member makes, and others have alluded to as well in earlier questions, about elective care and doing as much as we possibly can do, and how we transparently set that out. You will see plans, when we publish the operational framework and quarter 3 and quarter 4 plans that I expect to come back in for us to be able to publish through October, for how we want to maintain elective activity, the sort of elective activity work we'll be able to do, and then health boards working transparently with their staff and the patients they're serving to try to explain how they're working through that. But, as I say, it's important to recognise that I don't think we're going to be able to keep up with the demand that is there. In normal times, we'd see a different position. And, actually through the first three, four years of this term, we actually made significant and material moves forward every year in the time that people waited, in doing more elective activity and the transformation of that. We're going to a significant step backwards because of the way the pandemic has interrupted not just a period of time elective activity didn't take place, but the way our service operates.
And, finally, to say thank you for the recognition of the work that was done, not just by myself, but Andrew Morgan, the leader of RCT, who I think has been highly impressive throughout not just the pandemic, but in dealing with this particular situation over the weekend, but, in particular, the team at Public Health Wales, Cwm Taf Morgannwg and the Welsh ambulance service, who, from a challenge that we knew about late on Friday evening, by 10 o'clock the next day, had a Welsh solution in place to make sure that testing was protected. It involved work late at night and through Saturday—not always popular with families, as I can attest to myself—but it meant that the public had a service they could rely on that next day.

David Rees AC: Minister, thank you for your statement, and I want to put on record my thanks to all those health and care social workers who have gone above and beyond in the last six months, and will go above and beyond in the next six months as well. I agree with my colleague Alun Davies from Blaenau Gwent in regard to testing, but you've answered that, so I won't push that agenda at this point.
But you mentioned just now the ambulance service, and one of the issues I'm concerned about, and I'm getting messages from my constituents, is they are now facing increased pressure once again, and we're seeing five-, six-, seven-hour waits for ambulances to attend at the point of need. A person falling down, an older person falling down on a path in the summer being told, 'Don't move them'—on a nice day like this, you could get away with it; come the winter, that is not acceptable. We need to address the issue on the emergency ambulance services and getting people out. I've had ambulances waiting at Morriston, again, for hours. Will you look at this to make sure the ambulance service has sufficient resources to be able to actually go to these urgent cases, to ensure people don't have to wait these long times for the care? And, another point, we've also questioned on the health visitors issue and the safeguarding of children; some health visitorshave not been able to go, during the coronavirus pandemic, to ensure that the children are safeguarded. That's a very serious question that we have to address during the next winter months as well. I'm conscious of the time, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Thank you. Minister.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. On testing, I recognise the point that the Member has made. To be fair, as well as in the Chamber, a number of Members have approached me directly, in their capacity of representing their constituencies and regions, about the issue.
On Welsh ambulance response times, we're seeing both the return of more normal activity, as well as the backlog of activity that built up in emergencies, where people would otherwise have called and sought help, whether that's from the out-of-hours service or the ambulance service, and they're now returning in much larger numbers, bringing very, very high volumes of activity. It's putting pressure on the service while we are also, in some areas, seeing a rise in COVID cases. So, it's a very uncomfortable period of time. So, again, where people don't need an emergency ambulance, they should look for other options.
But, I'd also reiterate, I think, the need to transform emergency care. I have made announcements recently, and there will be more to come in the next week or two, about the money that we are putting into transforming emergency care, the resource that comes with it, and also some of the telephone-first and triage approaches being taken not just in Cardiff and Vale, but also Aneurin Bevan, which is looking to trial some of them as well, to provide people with an appropriate service to make sure that people get to the right point to have their care needs met.
I recognise the point that the Member makes about health visitors too. It's one of our concerns that there were challenges about staff going into a number of different houses when there's community transmission of COVID, but also those families not wanting to see someone who has maybe been in three or four different houses in the same day. So, there are some challenges here.
Also, for me, it reiterates the importance of keeping schools open. When you have a whole community of children going to that place, it's a protective environment, and we are able to understand and support children and their families in a way that we haven't been able to during full lockdown. So, I recognise the issue that the Member raises, and I am sure I will carry on the conversations that I have had not just with him, but also with my Deputy Minister and also the education Minister as well.

Thank you. Finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, could I turn straight away to the NHS COVID-19 app? Could I ask first of all: are there similarities with the system being used in Scotland, where, for example, the QR codes are on every table and every counter and every bar in every restaurant? It is very easy, very convenient to use, and I have to say that everybody that I observed when I was there recently was using it.
What proportion of the population need to actually update this and use this for it to be effective, and how can you promote that uptake, not least among the young and those who are big data sceptics? And, can you confirm that this is in addition to—not replacing—the old-school, tried and tested, localised test, trace and protect taking place in Wales? Finally, what's your very simple message to the people of Wales about why they should use this app? If you can't answer all of these in detail now, just write out to Members and we'll pass it on to our constituents. Thank you, Minister.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you to the Member for the questions. I'm happy to confirm that the NHS COVID app is now done on a local, not a central, basis. That was one of the concerns about privacy, so it should be largely resolved.
So, this is the second round of running an app. While Scotland and Northern Ireland have a proximity app that tells you how close you've been to other people, the app that England and Wales are going to launch and use together actually provides a bit more functionality than that. Actually, it made more sense, if the app worked in England, for us to have the same system, because of the transfers between England and Wales and the very porous border, so actually having a similar system has real practical advantages to it as well.
Interestingly, as well as a proximity app, it also has a diary function in it as well. So, if you have downloaded the app and you've been using it to check into places, you don't need to remember what you've done because there will be a function on your phone to allow you to do that. So, there are real advantages and we've encouraged businesses to download QR readers to make sure that people can check in and check out as they are going around into different venues and businesses.
It's particularly important that it's going to launch for 24 September—that's the plan—because we want to have this in place, ideally, before university students return. They're one of the key target groups who are likely to use and download the app, and somewhere where, actually, the challenges about people being mobile—. It will be much easier to do that, particularly when people are moving to a potentially new environment.
In terms of your question about this being an add-on, it is an add-on. So, contact tracing is still effective in Wales—highly effective. In 98 per cent of our index cases, people with a new COVID case get successfully contacted. Overall, since 21 June, 94 per cent of their close contacts have been contacted as well. So, a very high success rate, and all credit to our staff. So, it's an add-on to that, but it will be a useful add-on, and I would encourage people to download the app. We will be providing more information to Members and the public as we move into the phase of finally implementing this across England and Wales.

Thank you very much, Minister. There will now be a short break, just so people can re-clean the seats for change over. Thank you.

Plenary was suspended at 17:05.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:11, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

5. Statement by the Minister for Housing and Local Government: Housing, Poverty and Communities

The next item of business is the statement by the Minister for Housing and Local Government on housing, poverty and communities and I call on the Minister to make the statement. Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd.The coronavirus pandemic is continuing to have a significant impact on daily life. As we have seen recently, it is still posing major challenges for us all and in particular for our local authorities.
I would like to express my thanks to them and to the Welsh Local Government Association who have worked so hard and been so responsive in mobilising to address the situation. We have seen unprecedented levels of engagement and co-production; national and local government working hand in hand to support our citizens and communities, especially those who were most vulnerable—a uniquely Welsh approach where local government leaders had access to Ministers on the issues that really mattered, when they mattered. We have committed significant funding to local government. The local government hardship fund provides for almost £0.5 billion to support authorities to respond to the impacts of the pandemic.I would like to thank the WLGA, the partnership council and the Society of Welsh Treasurers for their continued work with us to enable services to keep running, adapting and meeting the needs of local populations.
For the future, we plan to place our established social partnership system and structures on a statutory footing, further strengthening arrangements and supporting constructive dialogue with our social partners for the future that Wales wants post COVID-19. A priority for that future is preventing and ending homelessness in all its forms. At the beginning of the pandemic, we took immediate action to protect those who were homeless, providing £10 million of extra funding, to ensure that no-one was left without access to accommodation. More than 2,200 people have been helped into temporary or emergency accommodation—a huge achievement.But there are challenges ahead. I have made it absolutely clear that I do not want to see anyone forced back onto the streets.
To this end, in May, I announced the next phase of our homelessness response.All 22 local authorities in Wales submitted applications, setting out how they will ensure that no-one need return to the streets, focusing on innovation, building and remodelling, to transform the accommodation offer across Wales. A significant oversubscription to the original capital funding pot reflected the scale of ambition to deliver a long-term, sustainable and fundamental change to homelessness services in Wales. It also quite obviously demonstrated that the initial fund of £10.5 million capital did not match our collective ambition. Therefore, I substantially increased the overall capital funding available to £50 million, demonstrating our commitment to making a truly significant and transformational step change towards achieving our goal of ending homelessness in Wales. We have provisionally allocated funding to 70 capital projects, supporting people into settled accommodation or transforming services for the long term.
Still on housing, I welcome the suspension of evictions being extended until 20 September, and I am very happy that the court has put in place measures to ensure that the impacts of the pandemic are taken into account. Using the powers available to me under the Coronavirus Act 2020, I have acted to give additional protection to renters by increasing notice periods for eviction to six months, other than in relation to anti-social behaviour. I was pleased to note that the UK Government has since made similar changes. I am committed to ensuring that we continue to protect renters whilst at the same time mitigating impacts on landlords. Therefore, I intend making regulations extending the current protections until the end of March next year.
At the same time, and in recognition of the need to address the impact on communities of anti-social and other negative behaviour in a timely manner, I intend reducing the notice periods for possession grounds relating to anti-social behaviour and domestic abuse to the pre-COVID position. Where rent arrears have accumulated due to COVID-19, private rented sector tenants will soon be able to apply for a loan through the tenancy saver loan scheme when it opens for applications later this month. We've also provided an additional £1.4 million to boost services that support people in Wales to manage problem debt and improve their household income.
Looking beyond the pandemic, we are continuing with our Bill to amend the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 to increase security of tenure. The Bill extends the no-fault notice period from two to six months, and landlords will be prevented from issuing a no-fault notice until at least six months from the date of occupancy. This means those renting their homes will have a minimum of 12 months' security of tenure from the outset of their contract, meaning security of tenure in Wales will be greater than elsewhere in the UK.
The consequences of the pandemic are far reaching, and, sadly, the economic impact of COVID-19 will mean a significant rise in poverty levels. Prior to the COVID-19 crisis, I commissioned a child poverty review, which sought to explore what more could be done to improve outcomes for children and young people. The pandemic has had such far-reaching consequences for the lives of people in Wales and our economy, we believe the findings of that review do not now fully reflect the current landscape. Practical actions to help mitigate the impact of the crisis for families living in poverty is urgent and necessary right now. Our focus is on action to maximise income and provide support to families to build financial resilience. We are working in collaboration with our stakeholders to progress this work over the coming months.
We are working with local authorities to ensure that local authority benefits such as free school meals and council tax reduction are more accessible, as well as helping to make the administration more streamlined and less resource intensive for local authorities. We're also developing a 'no wrong door' approach through a more integrated system of support, limiting the number of contacts families and individuals have to make and the number of times they have to tell their story in order to access support. And we will ensure that third sector and other front-line workers have the training, tools and information they need to support individuals and families to maximise their incomes.
I want to finish, Llywydd, by mentioning some other areas that underpinned our response to the pandemic and will continue to be priorities as we move forward. Thanks to local authorities maintaining essential services during lockdown, we've been able to continue to deliver on recycling aims and actions on decarbonisation. We are continuing to support communities and want to rejuvenate town centres and expand on the growth in repair cafes and zero-waste shops. To that end, we have awarded funding to Repair Cafe Wales and made additional funding available for FareShare Cymru to expand their food surplus redistribution provision. And finally, we have expanded the circular economy fund so that it could support the post-COVIDresponse and contribute to a green recovery. These are very difficult times, but we have worked well together. These collaborations will provide clear lessons and a great deal of good practice that we can and should adopt going forward. Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you for your statement. You referred to people helped into temporary or emergency accommodation. How do you therefore respond to the report released by Audit Wales on 23 July on avoiding a return to rough-sleeping after the pandemic, which found that up to £209 million is wasted annually by the Welsh public sector reacting to, but not solving, rough-sleeping, and cited examples of a revolving door for service users assisted off the streets into temporary accommodation but without the necessary support to address the root causes of their homelessness and who often ended back where they started?
You refer to the increasing notice period for eviction to six months, other than in relation to anti-social behaviour. Do you therefore—and you partially addressed this—recognise the need to protect both tenants and landlords, particularly in light of the increasing dependency of people on the private rented sector for housing and the damaging effect the pandemic has had on the sector? The majority of landlords let out one or two properties. Many rely on that income for their day-to-day living expenses, for example a landlord who told me, 'The house I own is my only property. I rely on the rent as my sole income for living expenses as I approach state pension age. I rented it out on a six-month tenancy. The tenancy has now run its course and the tenants are currently four months in arrears, have ceased communicating with me or my agents, and leave me with the dire situation of having no income but still my bills to pay. This will now continue for a long time. I'm 63, have no pension, no work, currently living in a narrow boat, and my financial situation is becoming intolerable, as I fear for my mental health.'
How do you respond to suggestions, therefore, by the National Residential Landlords Association not only for the adoption of a low-cost or interest-free tenant loan scheme for COVID-19-related arrears, which you did refer to, but for payment to be made to the landlord—or can it be—and a mechanism for landlords to access grants where renters are unwilling to engage or make an application themselves? This is particularly relevant for landlords where possession cases started before the stay and for those where arrears have accrued unrelated to COVID.
How do you respond to the call by the British Psychological Society for the Welsh Government to commit to developing a comprehensive cross-departmental anti-poverty strategy that places psychology at the heart of its approach and families and communities at the heart of its coronavirus recovery plans?
How do you respond to the statement by the Building Communities Trust, the Welsh charity that runs the lottery-funded Invest Local programme, Wales's largest asset-based community development initiative, that a public sector culture of doing to, not with, has eroded community capacity and trust, and reduced social infrastructure, and that improving support for local people to do the things that matter to them can help tackle the impact of poverty, develop local skills and promote health and well-being?
How do you respond to the statement by Hafod, the not-for-profit housing, care and support provider that we need to tackle causes, not symptoms, and, therefore, to focus on community and citizen strengths to help people take ownership to achieve their personal and collective ambitions?
How do you respond to the call by the Nationwide Foundation for a commitment to support community-led housing in Wales as an integral part of affordable housing delivery?
How do you respond to the calls by Tai Pawb for a human right to adequate housing in Wales, accessible housing, ensuring that disabled people are able to live independently with confidence, and refugee accommodation? Refugees in Wales face significant barriers in sourcing appropriate accommodation and support once granted leave to remain, hampering their ability to integrate and avoid a spiral of poverty.
How do you respond to the call by the Bevan Foundation for the Welsh Government to encourage local authorities to establish a single point of access for free school meals, for pupil development grant and the council tax reduction scheme, making it easier for families in poverty to access them?
And how, finally, do you respond to the call by NEA Cymrufor the anticipated new Welsh Government fuel poverty strategy to help those most in need, starting with the worst first, improving home energy efficiency, helping reduce energy bills and boosting household incomes? I know that crosses portfolios, but it's key to us all. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Mark, for that series of questions and comments.
Starting with the Audit Wales report, that report came out just before the pandemic, and as I said when I was talking about the anti-poverty strategy in my statement, life shifted. It's like a Sliding Doors moment, isn't it? Life shifted out of all perspective, and what we've managed to do during the pandemic has been incredible. I take the opportunity, once again, to pay tribute to the enormous number of people in the local authority sector, the third sector, the registered social landlord sector, the private landlords and everybody else who have pulled together to make us able to get 2,200 people into temporary or emergency accommodation and ensure that they were able to access provision that would allow them to self-isolate and have the right hygiene facilities and so on.
What that's also enabled us to do is it's enabled us to take what I've always said should be a full public service approach to housing, where we wrap the right level of support around people, because it's not and never has been just about four walls and a roof. It's always been about making sure that somebody can sustain their housing, that they have the right levels of support, that they're in supportive communities, that they have good mental health support or substance abuse support or relationship breakdown support, or whatever it is—domestic abuse support—that they need in order to be able to sustain that tenancy.
Also, I personally was very, very, very firm on local authority housing option providers, saying, 'Just do the right thing. Sort the person out in front of you. Don't worry about where they're from and we'll sort the plumbing out afterwards.' People really stepped up to that plate. I am really proud of them, and I'm really proud of us. Wales is a shining light in terms of its housing provision over this pandemic, and we should all be rightly proud of that. I'm really grateful to our partners for having done that.

Julie James AC: Unfortunately, the Audit Wales report was a report that's very retrospective. I've had good meetings with the auditor general about what we can do to look at the provision going forward and how we can learn from the lessons in collaboration and the different approach that we had during the pandemic. So, I'm very happy that they are going to work well with us in terms of taking those lessons learned forward.
In terms of landlords and tenants, the vast majority of people who are struggling in the private rented sector are tenants who, through no fault of their own, have had their income reduced as a result of COVID, and now can no longer pay their rent, when they've always been able to do so whenever in any difficulty. So we announced a series of things to do that—myself and Jane Hutt combined have announced a set of provisions around debt advice and debt counselling and support and advice services across Wales to help people who are dealing with that. We've also announced the tenancy saver loan scheme. Those tenancy saver loans, Mark, are paid to the landlord, so the tenant requests the loan, we've been able to do them at a 1 per cent interest through our credit unions—again, something Wales should be rightly proud of. So there's virtually no cost to the tenant, allowing them to spread the cost of paying back the arrears over five years in an affordable way alongside help and support. But they're paid to the landlord so that the landlord gets the income on the rent and the tenant maintains their secure home.
The thing about private sector landlords is of course it's an income for them, but the house is somebody's home. It's where they say, 'I'm going home', and they mean that person's business proposition, but for them it's a home, and that's the most important thing—that we make sure that they can maintain that home, and that we don't have a flood of people who are put into awful circumstances in which they find themselves unable to pay their rent, and they can't recover. So, on that basis, I call on the Conservative Government once more to make sure that the local housing allowance stays at at least the 30 per cent mark where it is now, that they really consider putting it back up to the 50 per cent mark, which is where is should be—and when it was first conceived by a Labour Government, that's where it was—and that they certainly don't reduce it back down to the levels that we saw before the pandemic when it was—and I said this in a Plenary debate with you, Mark, before—lower than in the poor laws in the Elizabethan era. Because that is something we should all be ashamed of. So, I really do call on the Government to do that, and I hope the Conservatives in the Welsh Parliament will assist us with that call, because if people have their local housing allowance reduced, then we really will have a big problem with the private rented sector.
The landlord who is in the position you mentioned, with difficulties with their income and so on, will also, of course, be able to access the debt advice that I've just discussed, because that's open to all citizens of Wales, and I would recommend that. If you want to give me details, I can pass that on for you.
The Conservative Government in England has announced a stay on possession proceedings because they too can see that there's a big problem with people who, through no fault of their own, can no longer pay their rent, and I'm very happy to welcome that, and the approach of the courts in making sure that, before anyone can take eviction proceedings for rent arrears, they must go through a protocol with their tenant to make sure that they understand the nature, and that it isn't possible to make a long-term arrangement for the repayment of those arrears. I really welcome that. It's very much in line with where we're going.
Then in terms of the poverty issues that you raised, Mark, just to say that that's exactly what I was saying in my statement—that what we need to do is build on community strength, maximise people's income and make sure that we put them in the best possible position. So I couldn't agree more with you that we need to work with our communities to make sure that people have a streamlined approach to being able to access the right advice. I recently had a very good meeting with the Bevan Foundation in which we agreed to work together on an action plan for being able to bring that forward, and I look forward to being able to do that very shortly.
Then on the fuel poverty strategy, I'm delighted to say that, unlike the approach in England, where we're just having a one-size-fits-all approach, we've recently announced the optimised retrofit programme, where we're asking a series of landlords across Wales to come forward with a range of different types of housing so that we can see what best retrofit can happen to make those houses better insulated. There is no one-size-fits-all. What works for a Victorian terraced house in the Rhondda does not work for a cavity wall house built in the 1970s in Rebecca's constituency, for example. They're very, very different propositions, and the idea that one fit would work for all of them just does not work. So, our programme will bring forward a series—in the way that our innovative housing programme did, it will bring forward a series of potential solutions to that, and then we'll be able to roll that out as part of our fuel poverty and our Warm Homes initiative, and we'll get the right fit for that. And, in doing so, not only will we reduce fuel poverty, but we will of course decarbonise the housing stock in Wales and produce a home-grown industry of skilled people who can do that right across our housing sector. Diolch.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Minister, for the statement, and I do recognise the great work that you have been doing on this over the past few months. I do think the pandemic has made a number of people realise that we do need to upgrade the right to a home to be a human right and that it's something that can have an impact on everyone in society. I do welcome your commitment to seek to ensure that nobody returns to the streets, but your statement refers to placing people in temporary accommodation in certain areas in order to achieve this, when it's clear that we need a long-term solution. I know that you are looking for a long-term solution to this, but I do have some concern that there has been haste in moving some people from the streets, which has led to using inappropriate facilities in some cases. For example, I've heard anecdotal evidence of people, following a damaging relationship, being placed in emergency accommodation with people who had drug abuse problems. Clearly, that wasn't a healthy situation for anyone. So, I'd ask you to look again at the options that councils have in order to ensure that appropriate accommodation is available. And I do see that a number of councils have been working very hard on this over the past few months. In addition to that, I would like to see a pathway to ensure that emergency accommodation is only used temporarily and that we do have long-term solutions for people who find themselves homeless.
Now, in turning to the detail in terms of the 'no evictions' measures, which you mentioned in your statement, we welcome the expansion of this, but I do have concerns about the proposal to reduce the notice period for anti-social behaviour and domestic abuse. Can you give us an assurance that the priority in this case will be ensuring that people who are evicted are given alternative accommodation and that they are given assistance with the problems that they have? Now, obviously this is a complex issue, I understand that, and there are a number of agencies that will be involved, but these are the most complex cases that need the greatest amount of support.
I also want an assurance on the tenancy saver loan scheme. I'm not sure that increasing the debts of people who are likely to find themselves in difficult financial situations, perhaps, for many years will truly resolve the problem. Isn't it unfair that landlords are having bail-outs, in a way, from Government when many sectors aren't? So, I would like to know what safeguards are in place to ensure that some landlords don't take advantage of this initiative, just to throw tenants out once the restrictions are removed.
To conclude, I would like to note an issue that isn't dealt with here that I would have liked to have seen it included in the statement, namely the shortage of social and affordable housing. Yes, the core numbers are increasing, but they are falling far short of what is required. The elephant in the room, if I can say that, is that we have a planning system that has profit assurance built into it, namely developers can use the Planning Inspectorate to prevent local authorities from having the deserved share of affordable housing in developments, and your Government hasn't truly addressed this. So, can you tell us when you can actually do away with the ability of the Planning Inspectorate to allow developments that don't have a proper proportion of affordable housing? When will you deal with that? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Delyth. Thank you very much for that suite of comments and questions. Just on the human right to housing, we are very much working alongside a number of organisations looking at how that might work. I just want to remind Members once more, as I constantly remind myself, that the Assembly, as it then was, passed the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, and what a groundbreaking piece of legislation that is. And that actually goes quite a long way to doing some of the things that you mentioned there. But we have got some other things that we need to do. For example, the renting homes Act means that anybody renting a home, including social landlords, has to have a house that's fit for human habitation. And I'd just like to remind the Chamber that, of course, the Tories at Westminster level refused to put 'fit for human habitation' into their legislation, so that just shows you how low the benchmark is. So, we have done that—we've already moved that forward.

Julie James AC: The next phase is to make sure that we have the adequate housing necessary to enable people to enforce the right to adequate housing. There's no point in giving people the right to adequate housing if, actually, in the end there isn't enough adequate housing to go around. So, jumping to your bit about the social housing, very much part of our part 2 homelessness plan is to move people from the temporary and emergency accommodation into good-quality, permanent social housing, and a very large part of the capital bids that came forward that we've been able to approve from local authorities and partners is to build social housing, especially modern methods of construction social housing, which is carbon neutral or carbon passive—a number of things.
So, I'm very, very pleased with that. We're able to up our social stock immediately as a result of that. We're also looking at plans to enable councils and RSLs to buy off land from the private sector—we're still looking at that—because by doing that, we can encourage our private sector builders, especially our small and medium-sized enterprises, to build to social housing standards, so that if there is a recession, then we can continue to build that social housing stock. And, of course, we've got the private sector scheme in place where a private sector landlord who is worried about being able to continue their income in uncertain times, and all the rest of it, can actually hand their house over to a social landlord for five years and have the guaranteed local housing allowance, and also a guarantee that their house will be returned to them at social housing standard. So, a very good deal and I'd encourage all private sector landlords to look into, because that's a way to ensure that you do get that income and you don't have the worry of having to deal with it yourself. It means that we can give secure tenancies to people, which is obviously much better.And then we of course have very ambitious plans. We're cautiously optimistic that we'll be able to significantly increase the amount of social housing, even in what's left of this Welsh Parliament and then certainly in the parliamentary term following. And I'm sure whichever Government is in place will want to do that; there seems to be a broad consensus across the Chamber that that should be done. So, I'm very pleased with that, and there's cautious optimism that we'll be able to really ramp it up. You've heard me speaking about building it at pace and scale. We're in a good place to say that we're doing that.
On the tenancy saver loans, so just to say I absolutely agree with you this isn't the time to increase people's debt. So, that's why we've managed to negotiate this 1 per cent annual percentage rate. It wasn't possible to do it at nothing, for a variety of reasons I don't have time to go into here, or the Llywydd will be losing patience with me, but 1 per cent is a very, very small margin for people to look at. And just to say that, of course, we're not increasing their debt other than by that tiny margin. This is a debt that's incurred because they haven't been able to pay their rent through no fault of their own et cetera, through difficult circumstances.I'm going to take this opportunity to say that we encourage people to pay their rent where they can, because the arrears can be very, very difficult. But the loan is then paid to the landlord because then the rent is paid, so that person can't be evicted for not paying their rent because they will have paid their rent. So, that's the whole point about it. It short-circuits that. And so, from our point of view as a Government, it's a very good thing as well, because what we want is we want people to stay in their homes—these are their homes. We don't want them to be insecure and eventually have to leave, and then present themselves at the local authority housing options saying, 'Please find me somewhere else to go.' This is a very important investment by the Government to ensure that people can do that and, obviously, we've had to look carefully at what we think the rate of repayment will be and so on. But the Government has decided that that's a good investment to make in those people. Most people want to pay their rent, they want to stay in their house, so I'm really pleased we've done that, but I just wanted to clear up that that's what we're doing, because I agree with you about not increasing people's rents. It's certainly not a bail-out to the landlord because, of course, the landlord is entitled to their rent. So, it's that way round.
Further down the line, I will want to look as well at mortgage rescue. I'm not in a position to talk about that yet, but if the recession deepens as we expect, then there will be a number of people who'll get themselves into difficulties in mortgage repayments. And we will be looking to see what we can do to help them out by way of allowing them to convert their mortgage into rent payments, and take those homes into social ownership. That was done in the last recession as well. I'm not there yet, but I'm certainly looking to investigate things like that. And the reason I mention that, Llywydd, is because if any Members have any other brilliant ideas of that sort, I'd be really glad to hear them, because we are not the fount of all knowledge, and people across the Chamber have had good ideas in this space, so I'd really like people to come forward and share them with us, if at all possible.
And then the last thing is on the planning system. You'll know we've changed the policy on Welsh Government-owned land so that we have 50 per cent affordable housing on all schemes on Welsh Government land. We're encouraging that for other public sector land across Wales. We're in conversation with local authorities about maximising that. And then, of course, local authorities—it's up to local authorities, not the planning inspectors. It's up to local authorities to make sure that their local development plan specifies a very large amount of social housing for their land. So, that's the way forward, and I'm really proud of Wales's plan-led system. Shortly, Llywydd, we'll be introducing the national development framework alongside Planning Policy Wales. It's certainly one of the most progressive frameworks anywhere in the United Kingdom and, actually, pretty good even for western Europe. So, we're very proud of it. But the planning inspector can only do what's in front of them. So, if the LDP doesn't specify that, they can't do anything about it. So, we need to make sure that the plan is in and that local people have a big say in what that plan looks like in building that housing. Thank you, Llywydd.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I first of all welcome the statement by the Minister? It amazes me how little money was needed to protect those who were homeless at the beginning of the pandemic, and I think one good thing that's come out of the pandemic is the idea of trying to deal with homelessness. I'm very pleased that the Minister believes that preventing and ending homelessness in all its forms is a priority for the future, and I hope whoever takes over from the Minister throughout the rest of the time this Senedd is in existence will see that as a priority.
I'm also pleased that the Minister does not want to see anyone returning to sleeping on the street or walking the streets at night and sleeping in parks during the day, which I understand is something that is more likely to be done by younger people and women who don't want to be sleeping in doorways during the night. But what is the Welsh Government's assessment of the numbers who are sofa surfing and are just one step away from sleeping on the street, and what support can be given to this group of people to stop them getting into that position?
Can I say, I welcome the provision of free school meals across the summer holidays this year? I've asked for it for a long time; I'm very pleased it's happened. And I'm asking on behalf of the families of children who get free school meals: why can't it continue for every holiday? And also, can financial support be provided for the children when they're absent from school, possible because they're having the 14 days when they have to self-isolate? Then they go 14 days without having the free school meals which they're entitled to. So, can some support be given to them?
I hold a view that is, I think, unique here—I see no role for a planning inspector. When planning inspectors get abolished, which is inevitable, it will be like when we came off gold standard, when everybody would say, 'Well, why didn't we do that before?' There's no reason, in my opinion, for a planning inspector—if you don't like the decision, you can go to judicial review. Having these people, who know nothing about the area, coming in, making decisions that often simply cause severe problems in an area, I think is something that is going to come to an end, and, Minister, I hope you're the person to do it.

Julie James AC: Well, right up until that last bit, Mike, we were just agreeing with each other, so I suppose it's always good not to have complete agreement all the way down the line.
So, in terms of the small amount of money, it does seem like a small amount of money, but, of course, it was additional money. All of the normal money for homelessness was still in the system. We didn't just take £10 million and solve homelessness—there are hundreds of millions of pounds in the homelessness system. What we did was we reconfigured it really quickly, and that's why I'm so grateful to partners, because they stepped up to reconfiguring it really quickly, and it is amazing how quickly we did that.
Of course, we did have a unique opportunity—I'll just remind Members of that—because, all of a sudden, we had a large number of hotels and bed and breakfasts and university accommodation and so on that didn't have anybody in them. That was very unique—we'd never had that situation before. So, in a really dark situation, we had a ray of light we had an opportunity to take advantage of, and we were able to take advantage of that. So, I'm very proud of that. But it is tempting to think it was done for £10 million—that's just not the case.
So, we housed 2,200 people who were otherwise in unsuitable accommodation or no accommodation over the course of the pandemic, Mike, and that shows you that we were—. That was the number of people who were sofa surfing and could no longer do so as people who were prepared to put them up on their sofa wouldn't do that because they were wanting to be COVID secure and so on. And what it shows us is something we always knew: we always knew that the rough count of sleepers was inadequate. We always knew that it was a snapshot. We always knew that it wasn't capturing everybody—people who, as you say, were walking all night and sleeping in the day, women in particular and so on. So, it's given us a much better idea of the number of people that we knew were in that situation. So, the answer to that is there were 2,200 people in that situation and we've been able to house all of them in emergency or temporary accommodation, and now this phase 2 approach is to get those people and the people who were already in temporary or emergency accommodation into permanent accommodation, and, as I said in answer to Delyth, we're working very hard with local authorities to make sure that people move on.
And the other important thing is that, when you are moved from your emergency or temporary accommodation, you're not moved multiple times. So, what we've said is the optimum is that you're moved immediately to permanent accommodation, but otherwise it shouldn't be more than one time. So, if you're in emergency accommodation, you move to somewhere more suitable before you get to your forever home, but ideally people go straight into their forever home, and that's much better, because then we can wrap the services around them that mean that that's a sustainable placement and that's just as important. I always say, if you put me into an empty flat in the middle of Manchester, my chances of sustaining that tenancy would be none. And that's the case for absolutely every human being: if you put them into an empty flat in the middle of somewhere they don't know, they will not be able to sustain that as a home, so we need to make sure that they've got all the things necessary to make that home, including the support services they need.
And then, on the last two points, on free school meals, that's obviously Kirsty's portfolio overall, but we are working very hard on a programme to sustain free school meals across the holidays and actually there's a group looking at what to do about children who are missing out because they're self-isolating or otherwise away from school who would otherwise have an entitlement to free school meals. So, there is a group looking at that, Mike, but it is Kirsty's lead on that, not mine. But it is certainly something that's under consideration.
And then the last point on the planning inspectorate—you and I have had many a conversation on this. We disagree, let's put it like that. But we have had to pause our separation of Planning Inspectorate Wales from Planning Inspectorate England, and I would very much like to see that advance, because I think then we would have a better chance of making sure that our policy aims were followed.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you, Minister, for the statement. I noted what you had to say about the work to tackle homelessness and to increase the number of social houses available. I had hoped to hear more from you in the statement on how the Government is going to use the planning system to tackle the inequality and the increasing unsustainability in housing markets in many communities across Wales, driven mainly, as I referred earlier this afternoon, by the increase in the number of second homes that we're seeing in many communities across Wales. It's a trend that's also driven by the fact that we are now seeing more people moving from cities and highly-populated areas to rural areas in Wales as a result of COVID-19.
We are facing an increasingly unsustainable scenario. Many people in counties such as Gwynedd can't afford to buy homes in the counties in which they live, work and were brought up. I saw a statistic that 40 per cent of all the homes sold in Gwynedd last year were bought as second homes. So, I want to hear from you as a Minister what your intentions are in terms of using the planning system to tackle this inequality and unsustainability as other areas within the UK have done and as other nations in Europe and beyond have also done.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Llyr. I absolutely hear what you say. There are number of issues there, aren't there? It's not just second homes; it's about having affordable homes across all the communities of Wales so that our young people can stay in the communities that they grew up in and they can contribute to Wales from those communities. We certainly don't want to drain rural Wales into our cities as a result of people being priced out of the housing market.
So, we are actively investigating a number of things. One of them is certainly to just up the number of social homes we build across the communities of Wales and to make sure that those homes are accessible to local people in the right way. So, we will be working with local authorities to do that. The other thing is to put the disincentives in for second homes and to learn the lessons of that. So, we have been looking closely at some of the things that have happened elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Some schemes have been less successful than they had hoped for. The one in Cornwall has been unsuccessful in some ways, so we will belearning the lessons of that. What I'd like to do, though, Llyr, is invite a number of Members who I know have an interest in this to come to a discussion with me to discuss a number of ideas. As I said earlier in response to another—I think it was Delyth—I don't have all the good ideas in Wales, so I'd be really grateful if a number of people who are interested in that would be kind enough to come and have a discussion with us about all of the ideas that we'd like to take forward.
And then the last thing is that I am in discussion—it's not my portfolio, but I am in discussion with Rebecca Evans about the threshold at which you can switch to business rents. You'll know that we changed the grant-level conditions through the pandemic and I would like to look in more detail at what would happen if we upped the levels completely for that, and I know that's something that yourself and Siân Gwenllian and a number of others have raised on a number of occasions, and no doubt there's several of you now saying, 'I've raised it as well,' but a number of people have raised it with me in the Chamber, so I'd be very happy to do that. So, Llyr, if you want to drop me an e-mail, perhaps we could set that meeting up.

Dawn Bowden AC: Like others, can I welcome the statement from the Minister and the update that you've given us today? And thank you also for the actions that the Welsh Government and local partners have taken in recent months to look after the homeless and some of the most vulnerable in our society in the face of this pandemic. It was absolutely the right policy at the right time. However, what you'll also be aware of, Minister, is that, on occasion, even the best policies can create some unintended consequences, and, for example, in Merthyr Tydfil and in parts of the Upper Rhymney Valley as well, the emergency COVID-19 arrangements have created concentrations of very vulnerable people in small areas of the town centre—so, the hotels, which are all concentrated in the town centre—and what that has done has meant that that has spilled out into the town centre and has had quite a significant impact on local residents and businesses in the town centre, leading to some quite significant issues around anti-social behaviour.
Now, while there is clearly a police response to anti-social behaviour to ensure that residents and businesses do feel safe, there is also a need for a parallel strategy to deliver support in a more appropriate and dispersed manner, so that people receive the help that they need, but not all in that one, concentrated area. And that's the concern that I've got. In small towns, it's actually very difficult to find accommodation that is not concentrated in one area, and all of these people with such complex needs being accommodated in small accommodation in a very tight-knit community is causing lots of problems.
Now, what I'm asking, Minister, is whether that particular aspect is something that you will consider in the second phase of the strategy. I know you've talked a lot about the need for that wraparound support for people in that second phase of the strategy, and you're putting a significant amount of money into that, but the issue that I'm asking you to take on board is the issue of the concentration of lots of people in small areas and accommodation where they spill out into the town, and whether we can have a strategy that includes dispersal of accommodation, so that that support is more effective, rather than having people in that tight area.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dawn. I'm very aware of the issue that you raise. It's an issue in a number of places and because, of course—you know, we were able to house a large number of people, but we did it with some speed and, as I said in response to Mike Hedges, it was possible because a number of places that were bed and breakfast and hotels and so on were available and they wouldn't have otherwise been available. So, obviously, in the phase 2 approach, what we're looking to do is get people out of those accommodations and into secure, permanent homes. So, each authority will have come forward with a scheme, and we'll have agreed with—I know we've agreed schemes in every authority in Wales—that authority what the best approach to the best stage is and what the best approach of moving those people who are housed in those kinds of accommodations on into their permanent home, or, in some cases, into another temporary home, but where they can get a better range of support services, so perhaps to a hub, where there's a range of support services around them.
I'm afraidI can't think of one off the top of my head in Merthyr, but I visited a brilliant scheme in Newport only a few weeks ago, where we had put a range of support services on the ground floor in conjunction with a third sector partner, a suite on the second floor for individual support services and then seven supported flats on the top. Now, people are not intended to stay in those flats for the rest of their lives, but they are intended to stay in those flats for two or three years while their issues are addressed and they're put back on their feet and then helped to find their final, forever home. So, that's the one step that I was talking to Delyth about, isn't it: from the emergency accommodation into the supported accommodation and then on to your forever home.
So, once I'm—. Dawn, if you want to write to me, I'm sure I'll be able to tell you what the scheme in Merthyr is; I'm sure officials would be happy to remind me what it is. But we have specifically asked local authorities to address the kinds of issues you're talking about, because people need to have their complex needs met, and those needs need to be met in a place that's sustainable and secure, and that's not likely to be in a town centre surrounded by people with similar complex needs. So, it's very much part of our phase 2.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Thank you very much, Minister. Thank you.

6. Statement by the Counsel General and Minister for European Transition: The UK Internal Market Bill

Item 6 on the agenda this afternoon is a statement by the Counsel General and Minister for European Transition—the UK internal market Bill—and I call on the Counsel General and Minister for European Transition, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Last Wednesday, the UK Government published its internal market Bill, only eight weeks after a White Paper purportedly consulting on the proposals contained within it saw the light of day. The UK Government is not publishing the responses to the consultation, and its analysis of them is flimsy, to say the least. But we know it's not just the devolved Governments that question the need for the legislation and the assumptions within the White Paper. Organisations such as NFU Cymru and the Education Workforce Council were among those from Wales that responded critically. A Government sure of its footing in respect of such far-reaching and contentious legislation would surely publish the responses that it has received.
There will be an opposition party debate on the internal market Bill tomorrow, so today I will set out the factual basis for our serious concerns. From the outset, I want to make it clear that we have no issue with the objective of ensuring that a UK internal market can work smoothly after the end of EU transition. Indeed, we were among the first to point out the fact that we would need to develop a new form of joint governance after leaving the European Union in order to manage the intersection between devolved competence and the internal market.
For three years, we have worked tirelessly on common frameworks in all of the areas set out by the UK Government as identified as those that could place unnecessary barriers to the internal market being erected. This work is now coming to its fruition and there have been no examples of irrevocable breakdown or of one Government blocking progress in any of the 28 frameworks that Wales is involved with. Yet the Bill effectively undermines this work by providing the UK Government with a quick way of hollowing out the rights of this Senedd to regulate within those areas of devolved competence as it sees fit.
Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill would enforce the principles of mutual recognition and non-discrimination in the case of almost all of the goods and services that originate in, or are legally imported to, any part of the UK, defined in the case of non-discrimination as merely goods that 'pass through'. To give you an example, although we could continue with our intention to ban nine types of single-use plastics in Wales if they were produced or imported into Wales, we could not prevent such products produced or imported into England or Scotland from being sold in Wales if they could be lawfully sold there. It also appears that it would be illegal to insist on them being labelled in a way that highlights their damaging impact on the environment. While this doesn't specifically prevent the Senedd from exercising its powers, it renders them meaningless in the context that the vast majority of goods for sale in Wales come from other parts of the UK or pass through them.

Jeremy Miles AC: While this part of the Bill supposedly merely replaces the application of the same principles in EU law, the crude proposals in the Bill have none of the protections—of subsidiarity, proportionality and significant public policy exceptions—that apply in the approach it seeks to replicate. Crucially, it doesn't provide a floor of standards, which divergence across the UK during the era of devolution has been built upon. Part 3 seeks to impose the same approach on professional qualifications, though, declaring my interest as a lawyer, I note that the legal profession itself is exempt. But, as a lawyer also, I can also point out that this is a complex piece of drafting that will also bring joy to litigants up and down the land. We are not yet clear whether this would actually make it impossible to prevent teachers from other parts of the UK who lack the qualifications and experience required by our legislation from registering with the Education Workforce Council to teach in Wales, but it could tie that council up in legal knots for years to come.
Part 4 of the Bill gives the Competition and Markets Authority a new role in providing the Office of the Internal Market. The functions proposed for this office are ones that we broadly could endorse, but it is wholly inappropriate that a non-ministerial department of the UK Government, whose main functions relate to matters that are wholly reserved, should be given this role without extensive reform of its governance arrangements.
Part 5 of the Bill relates to the Northern Ireland protocol. It is somewhat odd, probably unprecedented, to find myself on the same side of any debate as Lords Howard and Lamont, but that will tell you how broad is the range of voices that finds this part of the Bill utterly repugnant. Anyone who believes in the importance of the rule of law, and the importance of abiding to legal agreements you have freely entered into, even if for the simple expedient of ensuring that other parties in future will be willing to make agreements with you, will be appalled that a Government could propose ministerial powers that so directly flout both domestic law and international agreements. The provisions in this Part also exacerbate a potential threat to Welsh ports by incentivising freight from the island of Ireland to use ferry routes from Northern Ireland to Great Britain.
Part 6 of the Bill gives UK Ministers, for the first time in the 21 years since devolution, powers to fund activity in policy areas that are devolved to Wales—not just in economic development, but in health, in housing, in educational infrastructure, in sport and in culture. Let us be clear about one thing: a Government in Westminster that seeks both the power to spend in devolved areas and the power to control the funding available is a Government that seeks to neuter devolution. And a Government that has so manifestly failed to invest in Wales in respect of the things that it already has responsibility for—railways, broadband, the tidal lagoon, large-scale energy—plainly intends to fund its own priorities by top-slicing the budget that this Senedd currently controls, leaving us with even less scope and flexibility to meet the needs of the Welsh people we are elected to serve.
Part 7 of the Bill explicitly changes the devolution settlement by adding state aid to the list of reserved matters. Dirprwy Lywydd, the preoccupation with state aid by this Conservative Government leads it to risk sacrificing a free trade agreement with the EU and peace in Northern Ireland. But, plainly, the intention here is to shut us out from co-creation of a robust state aid regime for the whole of the UK, and it's a significant threat to Welsh businesses.
Finally, Part 8 of the Bill contains the proposal to make the whole of the Bill a protected enactment, not capable of amendment by this Senedd even when it impacts, as this surely does, on devolved matters—a power that should surely be used sparingly but that has been applied more times in the last three years than in the 18 previous ones.
The Welsh Government believes that this is a badly thought through and highly damaging piece of legislation. We will work with politicians of all parties and none in Parliament to ensure that, unless overhauled through amendment, this Bill does not get on the statute book. We have proposed constructive alternative proposals. A wise Government in Westminster would look at them anew.

Darren Millar AC: I thank the Minister for an advance copy of his statement, although it was just as bad hearing it from his lips as it was when it crossed my desk earlier on today. It should come as no surprise to Members of this Welsh Parliament or the people of Wales that the Welsh Government is seeking to undermine the UK Government's efforts to deliver on its promise to the people of the United Kingdom that it would maintain and strengthen the integrity and the smooth operation of the UK internal market.
As you know, Minister, this Bill provides a framework for the orderly transfer of European Union powers back from Brussels to the United Kingdom. That is something that I welcome and the majority of people in Wales welcome. You have branded this Bill on numerous occasions as a power grab, and a number of other people have tried to present this as a power grab. Perhaps you can be specific, Minister, today, and tell me which powers this Bill will transfer from the Welsh Parliament, because the reality is there aren't any being transferred away from this Welsh Parliament. The reality is far from the case. Isn't it that, far from being a power grab, this Bill actually provides for the orderly transition of those powers from the EU to the United Kingdom? And, in fact, there are scores of new powers that are actually going to be endowed upon this Senedd, directly transferred from Brussels to the Welsh Parliament and, indeed, other devolved legislatures. And the powers that aren't being transferred to this place will be transferred, quite rightly, to the UK Government and the UK Parliament in accordance with the wishes of the British people and the people of Wales in the Brexit referendum. Now, can you tell the people of Wales why you object to the UK Government and UK Parliament holding these powers when you didn't object to the European Parliament and the European Union and the people in Brussels having hold of these powers? Why is it that the Welsh Government is so uptight about the UK Government and Parliament setting rules on state aid, but you didn't seem to have any problem in those rules being set in Brussels?
Similarly, why does the Welsh Government have a problem with Part 6 of the Bill? You have suggested that this paves the way for some sort of top-slicing of the Welsh block grant in order to support UK Government spending priorities, but of course you know that this is absolute nonsense. There's no evidence to support your claim. The UK Government has been absolutely clear that any spending will be in addition to and not coming from the Barnett consequentials that we receive here in Wales—in addition to. Now, I don't know about you but I would welcome anything over and above Barnett, and I think that you should be welcoming it too. I can't believe that you are rejecting a proposal that could bring significant additional resources into Wales as a result of this piece of legislation.
And, of course, the Bill does not actually break international or domestic law. It actually provides a safety net—a safety net—which the UK can fall back on in the event that the EU continues to attempt to divide the United Kingdom by the creation of a tariff border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, something that of course is completely and utterly unacceptable and goes against the commitment that the EU have already given in article 4 of the Northern Ireland protocol, which says, and I quote,
'Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom.'
Do you accept that that is what article 4 of the Northern Ireland protocol actually says? And if you do, do you not recognise that this Bill is designed to ensure that that continues to be the case beyond the end of the transition period?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, that was quite an extraordinary speech, Dirprwy Lywydd. I've heard a string of fiction sown together by complete political opportunism. I'm with David Melding on this—the party that the Conservatives claim to be, which believe in the union, wouldn't even begin to table legislation like this in Parliament—and I admire him for the stand of principle that he's taken in this place in response to this appalling set of proposals.
The first fiction is that we have new powers in the Senedd as a result of this Bill. I've asked Members to point me in the direction of the part of the Bill that gives those powers to us. It doesn't exist. We know, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the devolution settlement, the devolution legislation, is what enhances this Senedd's powers as a consequence of leaving the European Union; it is not this Bill.
The reason this Bill exists, as I think we understand from the speech that Alun Cairns gave in Parliament last night, is that, effectively, he said, the Conservatives don't like the Government the people of Wales have voted for. That is what is at the heart of this legislation. They just don't like how things are done in Wales. So, any fiction that this is a democratic exercise I think is blown out of the water by that remark.
And I think this notion that these are powers that were previously exercised by bureaucrats in Brussels—. I understand that that's a convenient line for a Brexiteer, but, actually, section 46 legislates to take powers that already exist. These powers to spend in Wales already exist; they're powers of the Welsh Government, and the reason they're being put into that Bill is to enable the UK Government to take control of the budget, of expenditure and infrastructure in Wales. And the notion that we should take this Government at its word in relation to future budgets, when it is legislating to break an international agreement, I think is utterly risible.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. May I start by also thanking the Counsel General for his statement? Now, of course, the issue of the internal market Bill is very complex and, indeed, risks the whole existence of Wales. It’s a huge disappointment that such a Bill should see the light of day. The big picture, of course, is that it’s very irresponsible indeed for any Government to drive forward the Brexit agenda while the COVID pandemic is such a threat to our country and our people, but that’s another debate, I suppose, and may I now look in detail at this Bill?
In terms of joint understanding, would the Counsel General agree that there is a risk that our powers to legislate here in the Senedd will be restricted unless the UK Government agrees with our intention? You described this as ‘far reaching’. I’m old enough to remember the arguments around the legislation to ban smoking here in Wales, starting in the Assembly, as it was, in the year 2000, in the face of clear opposition from the UK Government at that time. Without devolution, one could argue that the ban on smoking would never have happened. Also, issues such as free prescriptions and the change to the organ donation system meant changing the law here in Wales in the face of fulsome opposition from the perspective of the UK Government. So, may I ask what hope for Wales to legislate anew for Wales in the future unless Westminster agrees? And will we have to accept lower standards for our foodstuffs? Chlorinated chicken, anyone? Is there a defence against the privatisation of our national health service? That’s what we’re debating here. It’s not a dry constitutional issue and an issue about powers; it affects the lives of people on a daily basis.
In terms of Part 6 of the Bill, on the financial assistance powers, I heard what you had to say and I also listened—I had to listen—to the words of Darren Millar. In terms of Part 6, it appears that the UK Government is given a free hand to spend on projects in devolved areas, as you have said, and bearing in mind that water infrastructure is included in this Part, then that increases the power of Westminster and reduces the power of this Senedd, and makes a very real possibility of a second Tryweryn—the drowning of another valley against the wishes of the people of Wales. Cofiwch Dryweryn, indeed. May I ask the Counsel General: would you agree that powers should not be lost from this place without the consent of this Senedd?
To conclude—I do note the time, Deputy Presiding Officer—do you agree, Counsel General, that independence for Wales is the only means now of safeguarding Wales as a political entity, or will you write another letter of complaint and continue to suffer being stamped down on as a nation?

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you very much to Dai Lloyd for those questions. The powers that we currently hold, as a result of the changes proposed by this Bill, aren't powers that we will be able to enforce in the future, and as Dai Lloyd himself said, it's not simply a constitutional question; it impacts on the daily lives of the people of Wales. So, plastics, building standards, the minimum alcohol price, hormone-injected beef, all sorts of things that will have an impact on people's daily lives, be they goods and foodstuffs, then there is a risk for all of those in different ways.
There is a reference in the Bill, in one of the parts of the Bill, that the health service is not within its scope, but that could be changed by a Minister in Westminster without any consent from this Senedd. So, there is a risk there, too, in terms of our health services and other public services. There are powers that we can continue to use but can't enforce, and there are powers that we can continue to use but the UK Government can circumvent those. There are examples of all of those things in the Bill, and that is why we are opposing it so strongly.
I disagree with the end point that Dai Lloyd described at the end of his speech, but it's clear that we need fundamental reform of the relationship between the Welsh Government and the UK Government, and the constitutional settlement more generally, in order to ensure that we maintain the standards the people of Wales have expected and enjoyed over the past two decades.

Mark Reckless AC: Counsel General, once again you seem to want to frustrate Brexit. Your party voted against every withdrawal agreement, while legislating to prevent our leaving the EU without an agreement, to try to remain in the EUeven though Wales and the UK had voted to leave. As Darren Millar said in his excellent contribution, while you didn't object to the EU exercising powers, you won't extend that same courtesy to the UK Government. Indeed, in your response to the internal market White Paper, you seem to question the very legitimacy of the UK Government exercising a power across the UK. I quote what you said:
'the context of the UK is key. By legislating in this way, the UK Government would be imposing a model of mutual recognition and non-discrimination on the three other nations of the UK'.
But the UK Government is not imposing anything on other nations, since it represents all four nations of the United Kingdom. It answers to a Parliament in which the people of Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland are all represented, yet you allege that UK Ministers will flout domestic law, despite the Westminster Parliament legislating to legalise what they do.
Minister, isn't the reason you disagree with that Parliament's internal market Bill because you don't agree with its goal of keeping our union together, mutual recognition and non-discrimination between four nations, and preventing barriers between our nations, including those the EU would put down the Irish sea to divide Wales from Northern Ireland? Minister, you want us to stay tied to the EU and you want devolution to differentiate and divide our United Kingdom. But the people of the United Kingdom do not. Isn't it right that the Westminster Parliament represents them with this Bill?

Jeremy Miles AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, the reason I have challenged this Bill is not at all for the reason that the Member gives; it's precisely because I understand that if the UK Government proceeds in this way, it poses a threat to the union, actually, and I don't want to see that happen. And I know that devolution and high standards are nowhere near the top of the list of the Member's priorities, but they are in this place, and I stand by the remarks that I made in that letter.
I think it's absolutely fundamental to any understanding of devolution that the UK Government ought to operate on an agreed basis with other Governments in the UK in relation to devolved matters. And we have put forward, as a Government, an alternative mechanism for achieving that, which is constructive, is capable of working, and incidentally it's one the UK Government have themselves been participating in. So, we're not opposed to the idea of an internal market. We have also said, incidentally, that we are not opposed to elements of legislation to support the common frameworks, but there is a much better way forward than the way this Bill represents. It's to continue the work of common frameworks and achieve this set of outcomes on an agreed basis across the UK, not an imposed basis, which is what this Bill represents.

Mick Antoniw as Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

Mick Antoniw AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has not yet had the opportunity for a detailed examination of this Bill. It was produced very late in the day, with very little advance notice, and we look forward to your giving evidence on Monday to the committee, where we will explore all these particular issues.
But the committee has a particular responsibility in respect of the constitution of this place, and I would say in respect of issues relating to the ethics of parliamentary democracy and the rule of law. One of the founding principles of the United Nations is precisely on the rule of law, and I focus very much on this because you've related to many of the consequences of this legislation, but I think it is important that we do not lose sight of some of the fundamental democratic principles on which we operate. This is the UN principles of governance:
'The rule of law is fundamental to international peace and security and political stability; to achieve economic and social progress and development; and to protect people’s rights and fundamental freedoms. It is foundational to people's access to public services, curbing corruption, restraining the abuse of power, and to establishing the social contract between people and the state.'
This legislation, as it is drafted, drives a coach and horses through the rule of law. I am just going to refer to four aspects. One, the illegality, which is already conceded. I do not believe it is in any way acceptable for a Government to legislate for illegality and to argue that the illegality is okay because it might only be specific and limited. That is unacceptable in any modern democracy. If I were to mug you outside this Chamber, Counsel General, which I never, never would, it was hardly become me in court to say, 'Well, my lud, yes, but it was only a very specific and limited mugging, wasn't it?' It is absolutely ludicrous.
We also have to consider the implication when legislative consent comes to this Chamber of the ethics of consenting to legislation that ethically drives a coach and horses through the rule of law and sustains illegality, and I think that's an area that perhaps you might want to explore. It also gags the courts and judges from defending the rule of law.
And, fourthly, it gives unfettered power to the hands of Government Ministers who will not be accountable to either Parliament, or Westminster, or Wales in the exercise of those powers. Now, in normal parlance, if we were looking at Russia or Belarus or some of those countries, we would say what it amounts to is elected dictatorship. It was Roosevelt, I think—I hope I get it right—who actually said that the best way of explaining the rule of law is to look at the countries that don't have the rule of law.
As part of this exercise, I did a bit of legal research, and I was trying to find an example where a democratic European country has ever attempted to actually impose this form of illegality, and I did find one. I found a European state that had been a pinnacle of the rule of law, a mother of Parliaments, with a constitution that was respected throughout the world, where legislation was introduced to remove the autonomy from devolved states, to empower the Government to enact laws to violate the constitution and to disempower the judiciary. That was the 1933 enabling Act of the Weimar republic that brought Hitler to power.
Now, I don't want to be melodramatic about this, but democracy is fragile, the rule of law is fragile, and this legislation is, as you've described so rightly, absolutely repugnant, and I would just ask one question to you: do you agree with me that our democracy is too important to be undermined by this type of legislation?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Mick Antoniw for those remarks, and they carry particular weight given his role as a former Counsel General as well. But I will just say this point: he is right to say that there are parts of this Bill that legislate to effectively put ministerial action above the law. There are express provisions that state that regulations can be made regardless of whether they comply with domestic law or international agreements. Now, that is corrosive, in my opinion, of the British Government's reputation. Successive British Governments have described themselves as having a commitment to the rule of law and that being fundamental to Britain's sense of itself in the world, and I think provisions like that in legislation are corrosive of that reputation. They're corrosive of that reputation internationally, but also they put in place additional barriers within the UK to relationships between the Governments, which are dependent almost entirely on commitments made between one Government and another, and I think, at this particular time, the UK Government ought not to be looking for reasons for that to be the case. I think there are a range of views in this Chamber about this Bill, there are certainly a range of views in this Chamber about the backdrop that EU exit provides to it, but I would hope that we could achieve a much broader coalition of support in this Chamber on the question of rule of law and the risk that this Bill runs to the rule of law.

Delyth Jewell AC: Counsel General, the behaviour of some Conservative MPs in last night's internal market Bill debate was deplorable. They continually misrepresented the facts through cynical contradiction, claiming the Bill conferred new devolved powers while gloating over the fact that it takes them away. It was particularly galling, and I'm sure that you'll agree with me, to hear the former Secretary of State, Alun Cairns, welcoming clause 46, which transfers wide spending powers from Wales to Westminster, when he told the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee in November 2017,
'there is no agenda in terms of withdrawing powers or rolling back powers from the Welsh Government.'
There was an agenda, and he supported it. The Tories have misled us every step of the way and have dishonoured themselves with their appalling conduct. So, Counsel General, can you tell me what the current status is of the inter-governmental agreement now that the Tories have broken every key clause, including clause 6, which states
'The UK Government commits to make regulations through a collaborative process and in accordance with this agreement'?
And can you assure me that you will do whatever it takes to protect the powers of our Senedd, including considering bringing a case to the Supreme Court, perhaps in conjunction with the Scottish Government?

Jeremy Miles AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, I thank Delyth Jewell for that set of questions. I think the point about the speech that the former Secretary of State gave last night in Parliament drives home to me the fact that the objection is really about what we do with our powers here, not the fact of the powers themselves. So it's an objection to the kind of approach that successive Welsh Governments have taken to investment, to standards and so on—it's the things that affect people's daily lives in Wales. I can assure her that we will do everything we can as a Government to protect the rights of this place. There are a number of discussions going on internally about the scope of our capacity to act. Certainly, as you've heard me say already, we'll want to work with parties in Parliament to amend this legislation, but we'll be looking at it from a legal perspective as well.
In relation to the inter-governmental agreement, I will just say, in light of the speculation in the press, which I found very unhelpful, actually, in the last few days in relation to the repeal of the continuity Act and the inter-governmental agreement, I stand by the actions of this Government in seeking to reach that agreement with the UK Government. It has actually, broadly speaking, been complied with, and it has actually been the foundation of the common frameworks programme, which in our view is the right way to take forward resolving these questions. I would urge the UK Government to look again at the capacity of the common frameworks programme to replace what they've provided for in this Bill. I think that's a much more constructive, collaborative way forward.

Jenny Rathbone AC: This Bill takes us back at least 100 years to when the Encyclopaedia Britannica said, 'For Wales, see England'. Instead of being leaders on environmental protections, we're going to be laggards, dependent on the UK Government's enthusiasm, or not, for protecting our seas from plastic pollution. You've already told us that our attempt to ban all single-use plastics in this country would be completely undermined by forcing us to take single-use plastics that were produced in other parts of the UK, which would make it null and void, frankly.
You talked about common frameworks. We're all in favour of common frameworks, but the word 'common' is the key, isn't it? Not imposed frameworks, common frameworks that have been agreed between the four different parties. So, this seems to me a very sad day that would hasten the break-up of the United Kingdom, because it's certain that Northern Ireland would choose to trade with its nearest neighbour in order to prevent a tearing up of the Good Friday agreement. Why wouldn't you? This would be absolutely deplorable.
So, if this Bill becomes law, we presumably could not prevent adulterated food coming from a bad deal with the United States from being imposed on our citizens, and people wouldn't know whether they were eating genetically modified food or not, because it simply wouldn't need to be labelled as such. Nor would we be able to protect our citizens from the substandard building programme—

Can you wind up, please?

Jenny Rathbone AC: —that the UK Government seems to have in mind, to abolish all planning laws and allow developers to build whatever instant slums they have in mind, rather than the quality-for-life housing that we would like to produce. Presumably, we would be prevented from amending our Part L regulations so that they were fit for purpose with our climate emergency obligations.

Jeremy Miles AC: Jenny Rathbone is right to point to the innovations that we've achieved in this Senedd in many of the examples that she gave. We are proud of those standards here in Wales, and people in Wales are proud of being able to rely on them. Whether it's minimum alcohol pricing or hormone beef and labelling for that, whether it's single-use plastics, housing standards, the regulation of landlords, all of these policy areas where we are ambitious in our reach as a Senedd are in question as a consequence of aspects of this Bill. And we are working through each clause of the Bill to ascertain exactly the level of challenge that some of its provisions make to our ambitions.
I just want to say this one thing: we have managed very successfully to be able to diverge in different parts of the UK in areas where we wish to do so to reflect the priorities of our different countries. We have done that very successfully in a way that gives people pride in those standards in different parts of the UK, and also enables the business community, producers and manufacturers to understand the floor of standards on which these things are built. The proposals that we have put forward as an alternative to this Bill build on that history of 20 years of divergence and certainty, and it is not too late for the UK Government to look again at that set of proposals and to overhaul this Bill, effectively, to put those agreed mechanisms, that process of agreement, at the heart of the internal market.

Neil Hamilton. No, we can't hear you, Mr Hamilton. You need to unmute, or somebody needs to unmute you. There you go.

Neil Hamilton AC: Apologies, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for calling me.
I'm not surprised by the Counsel General's statement, because he's determined to die in the last ditch of remainer resistance to implementing the will of the people, and the people of Wales at that, in the Brexit referendum four years ago. But he boldly asserts his statement that the powers in this Bill directly flout both domestic law and international agreements, but the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020, section 38, provides that the UK Parliament shall be sovereign and, to quote,
'nothing in this Act derogates from the sovereignty of...Parliament'.
So whatever is proposed in this Bill, if voted through both Houses of Parliament, is going to be the law of the land and can't be criticised as being in breach of UK law, because it will be the law.
Secondly, on the question of international agreements, it's a core principle of the Good Friday agreement that Northern Ireland's constitutional status can't be changed without the consent of the Northern Ireland people. The Act of Union 1801, which establishes that constitutional status, says that the citizens of the UK are all on the same footing in respect of trade and navigation and in all treaties with foreign powers. Of course, the imposition of a tariff barrier in the Irish sea, which is what the EU has forced the Conservative Government foolishly to accept in the withdrawal agreement and the Northern Ireland protocol, is a clear breach of the Good Friday agreement in itself. Now, the Irish Government and the UK Government have both said that they will not impose checkpoints on the border. It's only the EU that has left open the possibility that this might happen in order to protect the sacred single market of the EU.
The EU has been, in the course of four years or two years or whatever it is of negotiations, negotiating in bad faith in my view, because they've always had the ultimate objective of wanting to maintain the extra territorial reach of the EU internal market laws, not just now but also in the future. What they want us to do is to accept even changes in regulations that they will be voting on, in which we will have no say and will have no vote. No self-respecting sovereign state would ever accept such a humiliation. And secondly, they want to maintain the extra territorial reach of the European Court of Justice as the interpreter of the law. Again, no self-respecting sovereign state could possibly accept that. So, if the EU has not been negotiating in good faith under the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, then the UK Government would be perfectly justified in passing this Bill through Parliament.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I just think I would simply say that, in relation to the Member's view about the legality of some of the provisions here, I think the overwhelming weight of legal opinion is against his view. But I was struggling to hear a question that I was being invited to answer, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Alun Davies AC: Minister, this Bill is an affront to our democracy. The UK Government concluded a treaty with the European Union. They then sought a mandate from the people for that treaty. They enshrined that treaty in legislation, and less than a year later they're repudiating that mandate, that commitment and that legislation. And we are being told here that we have no opportunity, no opportunity at all to pass comment even or to be consulted on the restriction of powers of this Parliament, where the UK structures of governance—the UK Parliament and the UK Government together—can simply roll over this Parliament, can stop us exercising the powers that the people have elected us to do so. Two referenda have provided us with powers in this place, and the UK Government can simply put that to one side without even consulting this Parliament and its Members and its Government. That is unacceptable.
Deputy Presiding Officer, I would be grateful if the Minister could explain to us how this Bill will impact some of the services that are delivered by this Government, how we are able to respond to the demands that the people who have sent us here have on us, and how we can then create a structure within the United Kingdom where the UK Parliament and the UK Government are unable to deprive this place of powers that have been provided by the people. For me, Deputy Presiding Officer, we have to go back. The Member for Cardiff Central spoke about the actions of a century ago; perhaps it's time now that we remembered what Keir Hardie was first elected in Merthyr Tydfil to deliver—home rule, a federal United Kingdom, where powers that lie in this place are protected in this place and cannot be removed from this place without the people having their say.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for that set of questions. On the first question he asked about what this does in terms of the impact on our powers here in the Senedd, there are a number of provisions in the Bill that either limit those powers, whether it's in food regulation or environmental regulation. It means that powers can be exercised but, effectively, not enforced, or it means that powers can be, effectively, circumvented. So, there's a range of ways in which this Bill attacks the competence of this Senedd and Welsh Ministers. There are provisions in the Bill that enable direct funding of aspects of housing, or in health infrastructure. There is already a settlement that provides that those powers are exercised by this Senedd and Welsh Ministers on behalf of the people of Wales, and if there is further investment to be made available to support infrastructure in Wales, we are very happy with that, but there's a Government that already has the powers to do that, and it's this Government.
I think the last point that he makes is very important. It seems to me that, in approaching legislation of this sort, which plainly, in one clause, explicitly adds to the number of reservations in the Government of Wales Act 2006, to embark upon that kind of legislation without seeking to do that in as collaborative a way, and as open a way with devolved Government as is possible—I think it shows the limit of the constitutional arrangements that we currently have. And I think we're in a territory where we need to look at the fundamental reform of some of those arrangements. And the way that he was talking about Keir Hardie and the home rule campaign, one where the Governments of the UK operate as four Governments, a four-nation approach—we've been talking about that, haven't we, in the last few months—one that really significantly entrenches the powers of different Governments across the UK. And not for constitutional reasons alone, but because of the way in which they affect the daily lives of people in Wales, and our accountability as a Government to those people for the choices that we make, which must be at the absolute heart of our response to this.

Rhianon Passmore. Rhianon Passmore. Can somebody switch on Rhianon's mike for us please? There we go.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I keep losing my screen. Sorry, Deputy Llywydd. Can you come back to me?

Right. Okay. David Rees.

David Rees AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I think we've explored very much with colleagues the situation that, constitutionally, this Bill provides us, and I won't explore that much further. But I do think we need—. We've heard the rhetoric very much from the Brexiteers for the last few years that we will have powers through the EU giving them back to us. Is it not true that this Bill actually undermines our ability to actually deliver any decisions based upon those powers? Because it gives UK Ministers the right to make decisions that undermine our decisions. And therefore, when people in my constituency expect us to deliver certain conditions or policies, we can do that here, but UK Government Ministers could actually deliver something different as a consequence of that. That's what people want to know. They want to understand what this means to them. And what it really means to them is we can make a decision, but UK Ministers can change that without even consulting us or the people. That's correct.
Do you also agree with me perhaps that this is actually an end to common frameworks? Because the common frameworks were something we agreed, something we put forward as a possible way of working together to come to these positions. But this is a situation where that seems to have been thrown out of the window, where the UK Government is going to impose decisions. Therefore, is it the end of the common frameworks?
And, finally, the shared prosperity fund. We've been asking questions for years on the shared prosperity fund, and it seems to be now that, in fact, when we were promised by Brexiteers that Wales would not lose a penny that we would have had from Europe—it now seems that we are not going to get anything. Where we could make a decision, as we could before, it's going to be decided upon in London, and therefore the shared prosperity fund, as far as I'm concerned, is dead and done.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank David Rees for those questions. On the first point, he is right to say, as Jenny Rathbone was saying in her question earlier, that we set food standards, of which we're proud here in Wales, but if another part of the UK chooses to adopt lower standards on a particular basis, we would not be able to prevent those goods and foods being sold in supermarkets and shops in Wales. So, that would be a direct example for you of the kind of way in which the standards we would set and legislate here in Senedd couldn't be enforceable, in effect.
We would have a more ambitious approach to the control of single-use plastics, I guess, than the UK Government on behalf of England, but we would have a challenge in enforcing that if the rules were lower in England, and would enable plastics to be on the Welsh market in a way we could not effectively enforce. So, there are a number of very practical examples about the practical limitations that we would face in implementing our priorities as a Government on behalf of the people of Wales. So, it isn't simply a constitutional argument; this is about the practical aspects of people's weekly shop, effectively.
On the common frameworks, I'm asking the UK Government to redouble its commitment to the common frameworks, because I think that it's in the common frameworks that lies the wayof regulating these sets of questions. So, we've been able to diverge for 20 years between the four Governments in the UK in terms of some of these issues, and we want to be able to continue to do that. And the way to do that is to do it on an agreed basis and managed. We won't always be able to reach agreement, obviously, but there'll be a process by which that can be resolved in a way that respects the fact that power is devolved in the UK in a way that this Bill does not do.
And finally, to your point on the shared prosperity fund. Effectively, the spending powers in the Bill, which the UK Government is taking to itself from devolved areas, will enable them, effectively, to run some aspects of the shared prosperity fund directly in Wales. We have always known, haven't we, that those powers have been devolved to the Welsh Government, and there have, in fact, been commitments, although never manifested, by the UK Government that those powers wouldn't be taken away? Well, there are powers in this Bill that would enable that promise to be broken.

Thank you. We'll try Rhianon Passmore again. Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you. Can you hear me, Deputy Llywydd?

Yes, that's fine.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you very much. Thank you for re-calling me. Let's be frank—the UK Tory Government's internal market Bill is the latest in a long line of totally incomprehensible actions by Boris Johnson and his Government. And I very much welcome today's statement by the Welsh Counsel General and Minister for European Transition. The people of Wales now, more than ever, will need the full functional responsibility and representation of the Welsh Labour Government to argue for our future in the face of continued UK Tory negligence and incompetence. Will the Counsel General reaffirm to my constituents in Islwyn that the Welsh Labour Government will always defend one of the most important principles of international law, and protect the rights of the people of Wales, under hard-won devolution, to continue setting our priorities, undiluted by Westminster? Without respect for the rule of international law, the position and influence of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will be greatly reduced in the eyes of the world.
Last night, the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill passed to the next stage. Yet, perversely, the UK Internal Market Bill would stop the EU from so-called blockading food. The Conservative chairman of the Justice Select Committee, Sir Bob Neill, stated strongly that the Bill contains an egregious, needless and potentially damaging clause, which would bring the UK into breach of its international obligations. And for Darren Millar, that is the Conservative chairperson who's put forward that amendment. He proposes removing the clause that would break international law. But outside of this, there remain serious, fundamental flaws to this Bill of democratic, economic and societal harm to Wales. This, Deputy Llywydd, is a bad Bill, and a bad Bill for Wales. The loss of functionality in the Bill is stark. The loss of our current ability to lead the way banning certain plastics and the UK new authority proposed to diminish Welsh, for example, high food-quality standards via a UK priority setting is ever-present in this Bill. But to top it all—

Can you wind up, please?

Rhianon Passmore AC: The bonus of the UK Government being able to top-slice our income in Wales is not on. Counsel General, what representations and actions can the Welsh Government take, working with colleagues in Westminster, to combat this serious attack on Wales and Britain's good name? And what priority is being given to the proposed erosion of Welsh powers contained within this Bill?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Rhianon Passmore for those questions. I can give her categorical assurance that this Government will stand up for the interests of people in Wales in relation to this Bill. And we will work with anybody who shares those opinions and shares those priorities. I'd like to pay tribute to parliamentary colleagues in my party, and in other parties in this Chamber, who stood up to those principles yesterday in Parliament in the way that she describes. But I'm not naive enough to think that the Prime Minister is likely to find the word of the Welsh Labour Government at its most persuasive. But I would urge him to listen to the words of three former Conservative Prime Ministers, as well as a range of former law officers and Lord Chancellors in previous Conservative Governments. This is a broad coalition of concern. It is not an exclusively party-political matter. There are ranges across the political spectrum who, for various reasons, are very, very troubled with this Bill. And I would say to him, it's not too late to heed those words and to reverse his position on this Bill.

Thank you very much. And that brings us to the end of the speakers for that item. Therefore, there is no further business, so that brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you very much.

The meeting ended at 18:50.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Caroline Jones: What plans does the Welsh Government have to expand COVID-19 testing capacity in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: We have recently announced £32 million to increase capacity to process testing samples at laboratories in Wales, which includes extending our regional labs to 24-hour operation and six new hot labs at hospitals across Wales.

Gareth Bennett: What discussions has the First Minister had regarding Wales's constitutional status within the United Kingdom?

Mark Drakeford: I have frequent discussions about strengthening the United Kingdom and Wales's place within it. Respecting the devolution settlement, as supported by the people of Wales in two referendums, is essential to ensure a successful union.

Mandy Jones: Will the First Minister make a statement on the capacity of the NHS in North Wales to treat non-COVID-19 illnesses and conditions?

Mark Drakeford: Actions are being taken to increase capacity to restore services safely by the NHS in all parts of Wales deployed in a phased and clinically led approach.

Huw Irranca-Davies: What recent discussions has the First Minister had with the UK Prime Minister regarding the implications of the European withdrawal negotiations for Wales?

Mark Drakeford: No plenary meetings of the Joint Ministerial Committee have been held since the current Prime Minister took office. Rather than building trust and confidence at this critical point in the negotiations, the UK Government has increased the risk of talks breaking down by threatening to break international law through the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill.

Llyr Gruffydd: Will the First Minister make a statement on the governance of public projects funded by the Welsh Government?

Mark Drakeford: Robust appraisal, management and assurance are core governance principles of projects funded by the Welsh Government. This includes assessment and management of the risks posed to the project, which is underpinned by an independent review mechanism of the project's performance at key stages in its life-cycle.

Suzy Davies: Will the First Minister provide an update on any testing capacity and processing backlogs affecting constituents who have taken COVID-19 antigen or antibody tests in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The UK lighthouse laboratory network is experiencing significant capacity issues and these are impacting the Welsh testing system.We have raised these matters directly with the UK Government and will continue to do so. In the meantime, we are working with Public Health Wales and health boards on further utilising Welsh laboratory capacity.